Author Topic: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?  (Read 19918 times)

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Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #300 on: July 30, 2021, 10:48:53 am »
One rotation of the seven-note cluster anti-clockwise brings us to the F major scale.
From one end we lose the note B and gain the note Bb.
The Key of F major has one flat note, namely Bb.

F Major
         

F Major = F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E = 1 flat
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 07:59:47 pm by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #301 on: July 30, 2021, 10:49:10 am »
Another rotation takes us to the Bb major scale.
We lose the note E and gain the note Eb.
The key of Bb major contains Bb and Eb.

Bb Major
         

Bb Major = Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A = 2 flats
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 08:00:26 pm by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #302 on: July 30, 2021, 10:49:49 am »
A third rotation takes us to the Eb major scale.
A is the note lost from one end, replaced by Ab at the other.
So the key of Eb major contains Bb, Eb and Ab.

Eb Major
         

Eb Major = Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D = 3 flats
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 08:01:10 pm by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #303 on: July 30, 2021, 10:50:07 am »
We continue in like manner until we catch all key signatures up to and including Cb.

Ab Major
         

Ab Major = Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab = 4 flats



Db Major
         

Db Major = Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C = 5 flats



Gb major
         

Gb major = Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F = 6 flats



Cb Major
         

Cb Major = Cb, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb = 7 flats
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 08:35:04 pm by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #304 on: July 30, 2021, 07:47:35 pm »
The Circle of Fifths gives us the order, the names and the number of flats for major keys from F through to Cb moving anti-clockwise.

The key of C major has only natural notes.
Moving anti-clockwise from C around the Circle of Fifths we meet the keys of F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Fb and Cb respectively. For each, their key signature gains one additional flat note to add to those of its immediate predecessor. The flat notes step up in the order of notes we find when moving anti-clockwise from Bb then Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Fb and Cb respectively.

This can be seen on the Circle of Fifths below.


The outer arrow shows the key signatures of F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Fb and Cb in order.
It does not start at C as the key of C has no flat notes.
The inner arrow shows the flat notes which are cumulatively gained for successive key signatures, namely Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Fb and Cb.
It is this ordering which gives rise to the reverse of the mnenomic phrase we met above.
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father 


In list form, it would look like this:

0 sharps - the key of C
1 sharp  - the key of F ---> Bb
2 sharps - the key of Bb --> Bb    Eb
3 sharps - the key of Eb --> Bb    Eb    Ab
4 sharps - the key of Ab --> Bb    Eb    Ab    Db
5 sharps - the key of Db --> Bb    Eb    Ab    Db    Gb
6 sharps - the key of Gb --> Bb    Eb    Ab    Db    Gb    Cb
7 sharps - the key of Cb --> Bb    Eb    Ab    Db    Gb    Cb    Fb

It is worth emphasising, if it was not already clear from the inner clockwise arrow above, that the order of sharps, (B, E, A, D, G, C, F) is an exact match for the order of notes as they appear anti-clockwise within the 7-note cluster of the C major scale.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 08:24:49 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #305 on: July 30, 2021, 08:28:10 pm »
As mentioned at the outset of this section, knowing about the number and the names and the ordering of the sharps and the flats is not for everyone, not for many hobbyist and amateur guitarists and not for most musicians unless they are going to play from standard written notation sheet music.

It may be a subject for those interested in theory and patterns and the logic of how music works.

One final comment on this, what we see the Circle of Fifths doing here is a similar task to Mr Cato's Key Signature Trick which Justin teaches in his brilliant practical music theory course here.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 11:46:32 am by close2u »

Offline tobyjenner

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #306 on: July 30, 2021, 10:21:48 pm »
Substitute milk with Circle of Fifths !!





Thank you Richard.  8)
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Online DavidP

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #307 on: July 31, 2021, 07:54:12 am »
Fabulous Richard.

You are just so generous in the time you give to produce these posts, hours and hours, which help to educate us and enrich our experience here on the Forum.

Musical theory ... just beautiful in the patterns and how it just all flows.

Thank you!
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Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #308 on: July 31, 2021, 08:32:17 am »
@ Toby
The Circle of Fifths is indeed brilliant. I find it truly wonderful and continue to be amazed and delighted at its contents, its beauty and its gifts.
I think Justin is not such a big fan / user / proponent of it. I wonder if in part that is due to him having learned so much of the technical nitty-gritty of theory the hard, classical way at conservatoire, plus having learned Mr Cato's Trick first. He knows this stuff already so perhaps doesn't need a handy reference tool / chart. I should ask him!

@ David
Thanks, warm appreciation for my efforts never misses the mark. I'm with you, I find this all magical and wonderful and beautiful.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 11:46:14 am by close2u »

Offline Strummer of 69

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #309 on: August 19, 2021, 10:49:51 am »
As mentioned at the outset of this section, knowing about the number and the names and the ordering of the sharps and the flats is not for everyone, not for many hobbyist and amateur guitarists and not for most musicians unless they are going to play from standard written notation sheet music.

It may be a subject for those interested in theory and patterns and the logic of how music works.

One final comment on this, what we see the Circle of Fifths doing here is a similar task to Mr Cato's Key Signatire Trick which Justin teaches in his brilliant practical music theory course here.
Quite extraordinary Richard! I feel like I understand the concept of MUSIC on a whole new level.

If I can put it to  practical use I'm sure I can avoid that pact with the Devil!

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Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #310 on: August 26, 2021, 03:20:11 pm »
Quite extraordinary Richard! I feel like I understand the concept of MUSIC on a whole new level.

Fantastic. Levels and layers of understanding are, for me, part of the enjoyment and attraction. I love this stuff. I'm glad you dig it too and have gained something.
Quote
If I can put it to  practical use I'm sure I can avoid that pact with the Devil!
HAHA  :)

Offline Helibrewer

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #311 on: October 19, 2021, 03:44:39 pm »
Fantastic topic, thanks!!

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #312 on: October 19, 2021, 03:53:35 pm »
@Helibrewer

Welcome to the forum - and thank you for your appreciation and kind words. :)

Offline iainism

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #313 on: October 21, 2021, 07:35:59 pm »
This is a really great thread.  Thank you for the effort in preparing diagrams and explaining.

Are there any tricks that people know to help with memorising it?  I love @tobyjenner's idea of being able to 'walk it up' the fretboard, and I'm curious if there are any mnemonics that anyone knows as well (a la "FACE", or "Every Alsatian Dog Grows Big Ears")?

Offline close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #314 on: October 21, 2021, 07:44:16 pm »
Thanks Iain.

Some people use a mnemonic for the clockwise from F:

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle.

I never really connected with that but is is frequently written in text books etc.

Offline stitch101

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #315 on: October 21, 2021, 08:16:01 pm »
The song Hey Joe is the first 5 notes and most commonly used Keys in Rock and Pop music
C G D A E.

The first 5 notes are also the Chords of the CAGED system.

Offline iainism

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #316 on: October 26, 2021, 10:12:07 am »
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle.

Ah, yes, sorry I just saw that you've already posted that!  I'm not sure how I missed that before.

(And I already know the order of sharps/flats from playing the cornet, so I actually already know the order, I just hadn't put the pieces together ;D)

Offline tobyjenner

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #317 on: November 05, 2021, 10:59:54 am »
Way back in April, Richard posted the comments below, at which point Brian and I started whooping and hollering !! It was like a red rag to a bull.........................


Quote
Clockwise would take us to the 5th of F# which is C# and that key has seven sharps in it. C# is the enharmonic equivalent to Db of course.
Anticlockwise would take us to the 4th of Gb which is Cb and that key has seven flats in it. Cb is the enharmonic equivalent to B.

If you push on in either direction beyond these two extremes then you are entering an almost forbidden realm that exists below the cellar and is even darker, danker and more dread still. You would be entering a place of double sharps and double flats. YUK. OUCH. AARRGGGHH.

So it has taken a while but after Modes, C of Fs and loaned chords, the plan was to get the shovel out and start digging. The resultant piece was posted in AOVYP but I bottled it when I saw the chords required to enter Hades, so I stuck to E minor and a shift to A minor around half time https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=50351.0

It seemed only right to roll back the clock and see if that piece could be suitably adjusted to make it darker and moodier than it started. Anyway the track was dropped into Riffstation and dropped to Cb/B.

So here we starting the cellar and ironically go back to the starting Key of the original track E minor. And if you thought the original was dark............





Then from Cb it was bumped up a tone to C#, still in the cellar but the key change takes to F# (if I got it right) and that's one of the places our guardian and guide told us not to go, the world below the cellar. But as most pupils if the teacher says "don't do that !! " what are you going to do ?

Don't dig too deep !  ;) 





I guess I could have also started this in the magma of F#/Gb, and the abundance of sharps and flats depending which moniker you put on it.  The key change (again if I have got it right) would take us to Cb/B and back in the cellar where we started. Full circle  ;D

Ain't milk  CofF   great. ;)
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #318 on: November 09, 2021, 09:03:27 am »
Wow Toby, that was a memory. I’ve been in those catacombs under Paris. Really eerie place!  Your composition was equally eerie but you’ve missed La Toussaint by a week!

That was terrific, a vey professional set. Well done. I’m enjoying the music you’re making whilst you investigate this avenue of music theory. I don’t understand a word of the technical detail, but the musical outcomes are great and that’s what matters.
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