Author Topic: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?  (Read 7703 times)

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Online brianlarsen

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #250 on: July 12, 2021, 12:17:08 pm »
Thanks again for this Richard.
You're poking stick in the dark puddles of my brain that moves- as much as confuses me  :)
I always wondered whether that was the mechanism in the Every time you say goodbye song when they sing from major to minor

I had figured out the clusters of chords in the minor keys, but not realised that the names of degrees obviously have to change- Doh!  :)

I used to think there was something wrong with my ears when I'd play a song in what I presumed was C major, but much preferred E to e. Quite relieved to discover they were all songs in a minor.

Not wanting to come across pedantic (or thick), when your say:
Back to playing in a major key and a common chord to borrow is the Major bIII from the parallel minor.
Do you just mean the Major III?
In the example you use, it happens to be a flat, but if you were using A, would the the borrowed chord not be C?
Once again in the key of C major, we have a progression in which all chords are major but one is out-of-key. Here we have a borrowed bVI from the parallel key of C minor.
Same here- is that not just the VI?

@ Toby,
Glad to witness you applying mystical patterns to your magic circle. I had a smiley moment when I realised the CofF's outer notes started with all the basic notes Justin teaches on the two thickest strings.
Why use strings 4&5 in your diagram instead of 5&6?
Surely they are the ones most people are more familiar with, as you use them for barre/power chords?
You get a similar pattern if you want to connect the dots...
Oh yeah, leave the Paddy comedians out of it  :P


Online tobyjenner

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #251 on: July 12, 2021, 01:20:25 pm »

@ Toby,
Glad to witness you applying mystical patterns to your magic circle. I had a smiley moment when I realised the CofF's outer notes started with all the basic notes Justin teaches on the two thickest strings.
Why use strings 4&5 in your diagram instead of 5&6?
Surely they are the ones most people are more familiar with, as you use them for barre/power chords?
You get a similar pattern if you want to connect the dots...
Oh yeah, leave the Paddy comedians out of it  :P

Put it down to pure plagiarism, as I merely converted the diagram I found and knocked one up using NeckDiagrams2. So with a quick bit of drag n drop, here we go on 5 and 6.



It all gets a bit weird looking if you start the "circle" with the open E string and I guess most folk are familiar with the C of F being presented with C in the 12 o'clock and the natural starting place.

And I am sure you'd love Richard to introduce the next chapter in the style of Jimmy Cricket  ;D
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Online close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #252 on: July 12, 2021, 01:29:50 pm »
Toby - the best embedding you can do is 'know' this stuff on your guitar.
That 'knowing' does take some time.
Your discoveries are valuable ones.
:)
... we no longer need all those diagrams Richard painstakingly created ...

WHAT!
You mean I wasted my time?
WHAT!

I do like the double layer diagram with the basic Circle of Fifths around the outer wheel and the minors on the inner wheel because of the chords being clustered. I like diagrams though, period.

Online tobyjenner

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #253 on: July 12, 2021, 01:54:50 pm »
For sure !! This does it for me, especially in respect of the latest posts on borrowed chords !



 


All is good  8)
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Online close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #254 on: July 12, 2021, 02:20:19 pm »
...
I always wondered whether that was the mechanism in the Every time you say goodbye song when they sing from major to minor
Wonderful musical trickery.

Quote
I had figured out the clusters of chords in the minor keys, but not realised that the names of degrees obviously have to change- Doh!  :)
Yes. And see my answers to your questions below.


Quote
Not wanting to come across pedantic (or thick), when your say:
Back to playing in a major key and a common chord to borrow is the Major bIII from the parallel minor.
Do you just mean the Major III? In the example you use, it happens to be a flat, but if you were using A, would the the borrowed chord not be C?

That is a good question and perhaps I should have been clearer. In my mind when I rewrote this entire section, I had already written many explanatory paragraphs that I have now set aside to be used in a separate thread on borrowing chords. I decided to do that when I realised it was getting so big it warranted its own specific thread. And I may have omitted some essential information.

I will address it here immediately though.
C major scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

C   D    E     F   G    A    B
C   Dm   Em    F   G    Am   Bdim
I   ii   iii   IV   V   vi   viio

C minor scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

C   D     Eb    F    G   Ab   Bb
Cm  Ddim  Eb    Fm   Gm  Ab   Bb
i   iio   III   iv   v   VI   VII


The chord you question at first is the Eb chord being borrowed from the C minor scale and placed in to the C major progressions.

The chord whose alphabetical name contains 'E' in the key of C major is an E minor chord - labelled as iii.
The 'E' chord in the key of C minor is an Eb major chord - labelled as III.
HOWEVER ...
When the III is borrowed, its name has to shift so that it is referenced from the key to which it has been moved. There is no Eb note in the key of C major. There is an E note. And E is the 3rd scale degree. So Eb must be a 'flattened 3rd'. Therefore its name when played in the key of C major must become bIII.
The labeling of that chord as bIII is directly referenced from the key it has been assimilated in to, not the key it came from.
 
Once again in the key of C major, we have a progression in which all chords are major but one is out-of-key. Here we have a borrowed bVI from the parallel key of C minor.


 Same here- is that not just the VI?

C major scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

C   D    E     F   G    A    B
C   Dm   Em    F   G    Am   Bdim
I   ii   iii   IV   V   vi   viio

C minor scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

C   D     Eb    F    G   Ab   Bb
Cm  Ddim  Eb    Fm   Gm  Ab   Bb
i   iio   III   iv   v   VI   VII

This requires a similar answer.
The chord being placed in to the key of C major is an Ab major chord. There is no Ab note in that key signature. The 6th scale degree is an A note so Ab (the note) must be called a 'flattened 6th' which means the Ab major chord must be named bVI.

... if you were using A, would the the borrowed chord not be C?
Let's take a look:



A major scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

A    B     C#   D    E     F#   G#   
A   Bm   C#m   D   E    F#m   G#dim
I   ii   iii   IV   V   vi   viio

A minor scale and its diatonic chords with Roman numeral labels:

C   D     E    F    G   A   B
Am  Bdim  C    Dm   Em  F   G
i   iio   III   iv   v   VI   VII

If you have a progression in the key of A (whose third chord built on its 3rd scale degree will be a C# minor chord) and you then borrow the third chord from the parallel minor key of A minor, you will be borrowing a C major chord. The 3rd scale degree of A major is C# so this imported chord is built from a note which, when compared to what actually exists within the A major scale, must be called a flattened 3rd. Hence the chord is named bIII.
The reference when naming any borrowed chord is always to the key of the progression it is placed in, not to the key the chord was borrowed from.

Does that make sense? I feel my explanation could perhaps be better but I'm hoping it is understandable. :)


[edit - I have edited my explanation and deleted a lot of verbosity - hopefully making it simpler and clearer]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:45:11 pm by close2u »

Online close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #255 on: July 12, 2021, 02:51:37 pm »
And I am sure you'd love Richard to introduce the next chapter in the style of Jimmy Cricket  ;D

Ask nicely now ...



ps
I saw Jimmy Cricket live a few years back as part of a 'cabaret comedy night'. Despite the ribbing he has been subject to to for his persona and cliche props / outfit, he was hilarious.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 03:59:44 pm by close2u »

Online tobyjenner

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #256 on: July 12, 2021, 03:20:27 pm »
Does that make sense? I feel my explanation could perhaps be better but I'm hoping it is understandable. :)

Well I had to read the responses to Brian 2 to 3 times but in the end it did actually make sense. But I like the idea of this "borrowing" being subject to its own thread. It also answers a lot of the "why is that in there" when a certain chord pops up where it should not rightly be, when following the usual pattern of diatonic chord placements. I'll bank all this should I do another original in the future, as it certainly spices thing up.  8)
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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #257 on: July 12, 2021, 03:54:55 pm »
Quote
A]     I      V       vi     IV
B]     I      vi      II     V
C]     I      vi      IV     V
D]     I      VI      iii    V
E]     I      iii     IV     V
F]     I      V       IV     V
G]     I      V       ii     IV
H]     iii    VI      ii     V
I]     vi     IV      V      I
J]     I      IV      I      V

Right, this has now got me thinking...............possibly too much. But I just went back to the top 10 with these parallel universe, Major Minor chord substitutions in mind and while having a little noodle in C for starters saw a couple of what I originally thought were typo.

So there are a couple of what should be minor diatonics written in capitals.
B]     I      vi      II     V
D]     I      VI      iii    V
H]     iii    VI      ii     V
Given what has just been said about labelling the substitute chords ie replacing a iii with a III, are the above typos, or some subliminal suggestion of substitutions or some cunning plan to which we have just arrived. Think I need to go back and reread what followed the progression post but I don't recall this being flagged, then I need to lie down  :o
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Online close2u

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #258 on: July 12, 2021, 04:02:06 pm »
... I saw a couple of what I originally thought were typo.

Shazbat. You are right. But - can I blame Justin for that? I think I can.
I copied the progressions from a page on his site and he had them all written in capitals. I thought I had caught all the necessary changes in my edit but clearly did not.
Good spot Toby. Thanks.
Now corrected.
:)

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #259 on: July 12, 2021, 04:02:39 pm »
Well I had to read the responses to Brian 2 to 3 times but in the end it did actually make sense.
I have edited and hopefully improved the explanation.

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #260 on: July 12, 2021, 04:34:49 pm »
Definitely get it after reading the edited text. However, this might need a tweak
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:50:28 pm by close2u »
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Online brianlarsen

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #261 on: July 12, 2021, 05:20:21 pm »
I have edited my explanation and deleted a lot of verbosity - hopefully making it simpler and clearer:

The labeling of that chord... is directly referenced from the key it has been assimilated in to, not the key it came from
The reference when naming any borrowed chord is always to the key of the progression it is placed in, not to the key the chord was borrowed from.
I like the way you 'deleted a lot of verbosity' but left the repetition of the essential answer to my question.
I'm with you again(ish)  ;)

All your 'lilting dirge' needs is a bridge, chorus circus show lyrics and hey presto- you'll have a wonderful Waitsian waltz  :)

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #262 on: July 13, 2021, 11:07:40 am »
If anyone is interested I just installed a C of F app on one of my Androids, as I wanted something interactive and the online version I had found were not in a suitable format. Its a free app but not JG approved, so PM me if you are interested and I'll let you have the details.

As you can see from the pics, the top three segments show the intervals and by rotating your Key/Root to the 12 O'clock position, all the diatonic chords are laid out. You can play each chord (or mute) and select the  intervals for audio (you could change to 7th for example)



The central Key in the middle shows the number of # or b



And I have just discovered you can switch to the relative minor via the Major/Minor toggle/button thingy !



Found this a useful tool, as I have just mapped out the 120 progressions from earlier in the thread.


 
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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #263 on: July 13, 2021, 11:33:29 am »
I’ve found a C of F app that works on Apple phones.

https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/circle-of-fifths-app/id1302884256

I’ve downloaded it and it looks good but I don’t know enough about the theory to know how good it really is.
Anyone got any thoughts?
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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #264 on: July 13, 2021, 12:20:24 pm »
@ Toby

Cheers for that- just downloaded it 
I'm off for a few days r'n'r in Berlin next week-
I might learn something in transit  :)

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Re: The Circle of Fifths. Where does it come from? Where does it go?
« Reply #265 on: July 13, 2021, 01:28:52 pm »
@ Toby

Cheers for that- just downloaded it 
I'm off for a few days r'n'r in Berlin next week-
I might learn something in transit  :)

Safe travels Brian. You can actually use it to write progressions and then export them. Cool  !  8)
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