Author Topic: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...  (Read 5200 times)

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Offline Twin Six

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2021, 03:38:28 pm »
The modes are identical to certain parent scales of Indian raga music, which go beyond the modes covered here. Rabbit hole warning!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaat#Basic_thaats

Indian music is notated using an equivalent of Do Re Mi that goes Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa.
Only the 4th goes sharp (called Ma tivra), while notes other than the tonic & the 5th (Sa & Pa) go flat (called komal). Ma tivra is notated with a dot above the M, while komal notes are denoted by lower case. Simples.

Indian music is formed of an elaborately embellished melody over a drone usually of the tonic & 5th (Sa & Pa), though some ragas eliminate the 5th entirely, using instead, for example, the tonic & 6th (raga Marwa).
There are no chords in Indian music. You can play Indian music on the guitar, but you can't play western chordal music on Indian instruments like the sitar, which are purely modal.

So, what would a raga in Locrian sound like? Raga Lalit offers a fair approximation.





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Online tobyjenner

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2021, 11:24:05 pm »
Becky great share.

I always wonder about the overlap between Western and Eastern music. Being of a certain age a great deal sitar music got air play back then, especially Ravi Shankar and others. Guess the Beatles voyage east along with others attributed to that. So with my love of Mixolydian and my mixo head on I went searching some Khamaj and found this, the man himself !



 

Looking at the Wiki I was interested to see Khamaj like Buddhism also went East to China. That may explain why I am also drawn to certain Chinese styles.

Richard this is deep in that cellar !!





Aint all just rock n roll.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline Twin Six

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2021, 02:50:22 am »
Toby, I'm Jonathan, not Becky, though I'll take the compliment.

I came to guitar after over half a decade of basically full-time sitar study. At one point, I figured out & wrote diagrams for all the Indian scales on the guitar. It's tucked into the pages of a guitar book that's in storage. Indian instruments are tuned in a single key, usually C#, and with sitar, tuning to different scales often involves sliding frets along the neck.

The first scale you learn as a sitar student is equivalent to Lydian, with the sharped 4th. Because the main melody string is tuned to the natural 4th in open position, to play the sharped 4th means playing & bending notes from the lowest fret, where the string tension is greatest. It's a finger killer.

Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan grew up together being taught by Ali Akbar's father, Allauddin Khan, who also taught my teacher's teacher, Nikhil Bannerjee.
In '94, I went to a concert of Ravi Shankar & his daughter Anoushka at the childhood home of Rabindranath Tagore, the "Shakespeare of Bengal," in Calcutta.
I have a recording of Ravi Shankar playing Manj Khamaj at Woodstock. It was clearly one of his favorite ragas.

The Beatles had a big influence on my interest in Indian music, particularly George Harrison's use of the sitar & tambura on Sgt. Pepper. Within Without You has always been my favorite.
As for other examples of the confluence of Eastern & Western music, many of Keith Jarrett's compositions come to mind.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 08:49:18 am by close2u »
1986 Alvarez Yairi DY-76 (twelve-string) "The Twin Six"
1989 Alvarez Yairi DY-39 (six-string)
1993 Hiren Roy & Sons sitar
Fender Squier Bullet Telecaster
Vox Valvetronic VT20X

Online tobyjenner

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2021, 07:57:23 am »
Jonathan

Huge apologies. After a read and a listen then off doing some digging before responding, think my brain registered T S and I thought Twilight Storm (Becky), so memo to self to check authorship in future.

Like you I recall Ravi from Woodstock, as I said back in the 60' there was a lot of interest and I always enjoyed listening to those different and exotic sounds. I think that is took me down this modal rabbit hole in the first place, which Richard graciously followed up here.

In the mists of time I recall a documentary covering the sitar, which showed the tuning methods of moving frets !! And something I think I will stay clear off but truly fascinating !

Cheers

Toby
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Online tobyjenner

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2021, 08:00:10 am »
Richard

Haven't forgotten Dorian !! But now the OM "live" shows are almost done and dusted (for now) I'll be back on the modal impros next week and will likely revisit the other modes as well. Just too many distraction these last three weeks.

Cheers

Toby
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« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 08:53:36 am by close2u »
Here since Mar 2013 Completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM, MTMS Still on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
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Offline Twin Six

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2021, 04:14:44 pm »
The abbreviation OM as relates to guitars I immediately associate with Orchestra Model, so I had to go look that one up. Open Mic, duh. Distant future stuff for me, but a motivating factor.

Anyhow, back to modes . . . I've been doing lots of major scales practice on 6th- & 5th-string roots to learn which keys are where. Varying it a bit by trying Lydian & Mixolydian is good ear training for finding different intervals. Even though my musical training is modal, guitar modal scales & chords is a different garden in which I'm only starting to plant the seeds.
1986 Alvarez Yairi DY-76 (twelve-string) "The Twin Six"
1989 Alvarez Yairi DY-39 (six-string)
1993 Hiren Roy & Sons sitar
Fender Squier Bullet Telecaster
Vox Valvetronic VT20X

Online tobyjenner

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2021, 04:20:44 pm »
Look forward to hearing you one day, once those seeds start to bloom.  8)
Here since Mar 2013 Completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM, MTMS Still on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
https://soundcloud.com/tobyjenner/   
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Offline Twin Six

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2021, 06:28:24 pm »
Look forward to hearing you one day, once those seeds start to bloom.  8)

Now that daily guitar practice has toughened & strengthened up my fingers, I can start practicing sitar again and figure out a couple of George Harrison Beatles tunes.

As for gardening duty, I'm about to go out for some digging the garden doing the weeds, who could ask for more?
1986 Alvarez Yairi DY-76 (twelve-string) "The Twin Six"
1989 Alvarez Yairi DY-39 (six-string)
1993 Hiren Roy & Sons sitar
Fender Squier Bullet Telecaster
Vox Valvetronic VT20X

Offline close2u

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #158 on: May 22, 2021, 08:54:42 am »
@ Twin Six ... very interesting path into Indian sitar music - especially your comments about the modal nature and the tunings.

@ Toby ... when ever you're ready. :)

Offline adi_mrok

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #159 on: June 05, 2021, 07:50:13 pm »
The chord that is the tonic of the Parent Major Scale is a chord to avoid as it can easily trick the ear and usurp the modal tonic, making you think that the progression is actually a standard major type. The tonic of the relative minor scale will also pull away from the modal flavour in similar style.

If the tonic of the Parent Major Scale is something to avoid, so too is the dominant 7th chord of the Parent Major Scale that would naturally resolve to it.

Hi Richard I am reading this whole topic again trying to get my head around it and for now I decided to focus on one step at a time do just looking at one mode. Question is regarding quote above based on C Dorian mode.

Am I getting this correct - tonic chord of Parent Major Scale in this instance is Bb major chord, relative major is Db minor and dominant seven of Parent Major is Bb7?

Keep on rockin' my friends


Offline close2u

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #160 on: June 05, 2021, 08:20:09 pm »
Hi Richard I am reading this whole topic again trying to get my head around it

Good on ya - thanks for trusting it as a reference source.

Quote
.. Question is regarding ... C Dorian mode.

Am I getting this correct -

[1] tonic chord of Parent Major Scale in this instance is Bb major chord,

[2] relative major (I think you mistyped and mean minor) is Db minor

[3] dominant seven of Parent Major is Bb7?

C Dorian


C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Use the 7-sector arc to find what we need.
The Parent Major Scale of C Dorian = Bb Major (from the second sector clockwise).

Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A
1,  2, 3, 4,  5, 6, 7

[1] = yes
[2] = no ... the relative minor of the parent major scale Bb is Gm
[3] = no ... the dominant 7 of the parent major scale is F7.

Offline adi_mrok

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #161 on: June 05, 2021, 09:03:13 pm »
Okay God what a silly mistake, I was using the rule of 3 semitones distance up the neck between relative minor and parent major, however I forgot it's 3 semitones forward from minor to major not the other way around!

As to dominant 7 I forgot it's a different progression for "quadads", understand where is it coming from now, again you are a star Richard many thanks and vibes l!

Keep on rockin' my friends

Online tobyjenner

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #162 on: June 05, 2021, 11:54:35 pm »
Status Report on the "prepared" impros aka "oxymoron noodles" !!

IDPLMA -  Melodies written but nothing fancy and dodgy Loc prog about 1/4 laid bare but I have to go there. Just for Brain !!

Ionian played up to speed but not recorded as I did a few last minute tweaks on a couple of bars last night.
Dorian being played at 50 bpm but soon to be brought up to track tempo. First few baby steps on Phrygian.

So this coming week, will work 2 modes at a time. Play one to recording tempo, while learning next. Once all six under my fingers, start recording (have added drum track to GP files) then have some fun in Reaper.
Complete dodgy Loc Prog and lay dodgy melody over the top.

Hoping to have some postable recordings by the end of week but a great exercise, working with Guitar Pro and taking each backing track a bar at a time.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline DavidP

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Re: Modes - an adventure, an exploration ...
« Reply #163 on: June 06, 2021, 06:51:41 am »
Sounds like you are making great progress, Toby, kudos to you for the focus and application.

Look forward to a feast of modal jams in due course.

 

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