Author Topic: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy  (Read 8308 times)

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Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2020, 10:54:33 am »
3rds in the key of D … reprise

It is worth repeating … there are only two shapes for 3rds on any given set of two adjacent strings.
At the very outset of this thread, 3rds in the key of D were introduced step by step. Firstly on the B & E strings. Then on the G & B strings. And lastly on the D & G strings. I deliberately chose to miss any 3rds that use the Low E & A strings.

For ease of reference, here are those 3rds in TAB format again.







At the time, they were simply presented as nothing more than shapes to explore musically as the fancy took. They were not ‘rooted’ (excuse the pun) in any knowledge or theory. They were not connected to scales or chords. They seemed to have their own independent existence separate of anything else. They sound good and they are fairly easy to play. What’s not to like? Why bother any further?

Well …
It is time to root those 3rds within the context of the D Major scale and the diatonic chords that it gives rise to. We have already seen the seven chords that come from stacking thirds in the process of harmonising the D Major scale. It is time to root those 3rds within the context of a CAGED shape, that become triad shapes, that contain the magic intervals of thirds that we play as note pairs called 3rds. And because we are rooting the 3rds within the context of chords, we will see that they can be thought of as partial chords.

These partial chords will, hopefully, be completely obvious in the first instance. But, beyond the obvious lie some hidden facets that may surprise. The 3rds can be very ambiguous, very fluid, in their make-up, and take the character of more than one chord.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:17:06 pm by close2u »

Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2020, 11:00:44 am »
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

As we saw earlier, harmonising the D Major scale gives these chords:

D Major; E minor; F# minor; G Major; A Major; B minor; C# diminished.

We are going to see these chords charted only using the D-shape triad forms on the G. B and E strings for now.



Let’s remove one note from each triad and see what we have …



Wow. Oh boy. Those shapes are familiar!

See how by simply ‘removing’ the notes on the G string, we have laid out the 3rds that we began exploring way back at the start of the thread?

The note ‘removed’ is the fifth of each chord so we can look at these 3rds as a sequence of partial chords, containing just the root and third, that track exactly the sequence of chords in the harmonised D Major scale.

Play these 3rds from the ‘tonic’ D at frets 2 & 3 to its octave and you will hear the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do with a harmony voice of thirds singing above.

So the original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


          C#dim    D      Em      F#m     G      A       Bm     C#dim    D



Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 09:11:50 pm by close2u »

Offline CT

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2020, 12:51:28 pm »
Yeah, I think that's the ticket. Learn the various dbl-stop options, so that they are in your tool kit, and then mix and match them for more melodic solos. Tons of good YouTube videos out there to draw from. I previously approached dbl-stops in a half hearted way, but now I see it opening up a lot of possibilities. They lend themselves well to practice tied to chord tones/triads, scales and general fretboard traversing. I've got some practicing to do now. :)   

Online brianlarsen

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2020, 03:42:14 pm »
Aarrrrgh!   
How am I going to remember all these threads for when I'm ready?!?  ::)

Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2020, 08:59:09 pm »
... Learn the various dbl-stop options... mix and match them for more melodic solos... They lend themselves well to practice tied to chord tones/triads, scales and general fretboard traversing... 

Perfect take away from this so far. :)

@ Brian
I forget many of them myself ha ha :)

Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2020, 09:16:27 pm »
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

This exact process of converting triads to 3rds labelled as partial chords (by removing a note on just one string for each) can be done for the sets of 3rds on the G & B strings, using A-shape triads.

Here are those triads as seen earlier.



Once again, by always removing the fifth from each triad which always sits on the D string, we have these previously seen 3rds.




This time the 'tonic' is mid neck.

The original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


             G       A     Bm    C#dim     D      Em    F#m      G      A



Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:18:47 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2020, 09:21:32 pm »
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

This exact process of converting triads to 3rds labelled as partial chords (by removing a note on just one string for each) can be done once again for the sets of 3rds on the D & G strings, using E-shape triads.

Here are those triads as seen earlier.




Once again, by always removing the fifth from each triad which this time is always found on the B string, we have these previously seen 3rds.




The original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


            Em       F#m        G        A         Bm      C#dim      D



Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 12:09:00 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2020, 09:12:11 pm »
The ambiguous character of 3rds

So, each of these 3rds, as tabbed at the very start of this thread, can be suggestive of the chord from whose CAGED shape it derives. They can be thought of, and heard, as a partial chord, a chord fragment.

BUT ... BUT ... BUT ...

Two notes does not make a (single, unambiguous) chord.

Let us look again at the pairs of notes contained within each 3rd. For consistency, let us start with the 3rds on the B & E strings.

Here is each, this time labelled only with the note names and the character of the third they contain (Major or minor).



Look carefully at these and now recall how the chords from the harmonised D Major scale were built using stacked thirds. Each ascending note was a third above the previous note. Each Major chord had a Major third followed by a minor third. Each minor chord had a minor third followed by a Major third. So might it be that these pairs can be seen as belonging to more than one chord?
Bingo!
Darn right they can.
We shall see each of the 3rds and set them alongside the various chord formulae next.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 11:25:53 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2020, 09:13:56 pm »
     

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:45:57 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2020, 09:14:39 pm »

 
D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 06:57:19 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2020, 09:16:01 pm »


E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:46:31 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2020, 09:16:50 pm »


D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as an F# minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 06:57:39 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2020, 09:17:40 pm »


E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:47:42 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2020, 09:18:31 pm »


F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 11:27:22 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2020, 09:19:24 pm »


G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a G Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:48:29 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2020, 09:20:10 pm »


A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

(Already seen an octave lower.)

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:48:48 am by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2020, 09:20:55 pm »


D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

(Already seen an octave lower.)

It is ambiguous.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:28:32 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2020, 09:25:58 pm »
So the original TAB of 3rds could now be labelled with two chord names for each 3rd:



         C#dim     D     Em      F#m      G      A      Bm     C#dim     D

           A      Bm    C#dim     D      Em     F#dim    G      A       Bm



Where the chord names are really partial chords, either intervals between first and third or intervals between third and fifth.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 01:18:17 pm by close2u »

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2020, 10:22:44 pm »
Whoa.
Hold on there.
What is happening here?

A small recap.
The seven chords of the harmonised D Major scale are
D  -  Em  -  F#m  -  G  -  A  -  Bm  -  C# dim


These chords are formed from stacked thirds (see previous explanation in the thread).

These chords contain three notes only.
A first, a third and a fifth.
The first is the root of the chord.
The third determines whether it be a Major or minor chord.
The fifth completes the chord.
The interval between first and fifth is a perfect fifth for all but the diminished chord.

If any two notes of any of these seven chords are sounded, then you can hear them as partial chords, chord fragments, suggestions of that chord. This sense will be further affected by any bass note that is playing (maybe on a drone string) or full chord in a backing track.

We arrived at an understanding of the shape, the derivations and a possible way of defining the chords by thinking of the harmonised chords as CAGED shapes, stripping those back to triads then removing one further note to arrive at simple pairs.
And we came right back to the start - thinking that each 3rd represented one chord from the key of D Major.

Look again at the newly labelled TAB.



          C#dim   D       Em     F#m     G       A      Bm     C#dim     D

           A      Bm    C#dim     D      Em     F#dim    G       A      Bm



Each 3rd can be seen / heard as any one of two of the seven harmonised chords.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:37:25 pm by close2u »

Offline DavidP

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2020, 08:04:27 am »
Still following along, still keeping up with theory.  Excellent expounding, Richard.

And I'll say again, I think we need a childboard or pinned topics for Richard's expositions, so all who come later and those who want to come back when it is right for them, can easily find these goldmines of learning.

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2020, 10:51:59 am »
I'm so glad it is all making sense to you David.
Either Justin's theory course is being good for you, or I'm managing to explain things simply, or both! :)

My own section? Mmmh.

Offline DavidP

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2020, 10:58:13 am »
I'm so glad it is all making sense to you David.
Either Justin's theory course is being good for you, or I'm managing to explain things simply, or both! :)

My own section? Mmmh.

Definitely both Richard.  I've got as far as harmonising the major scale at Justin's level 3 (and the number of #s and bs) but last time I tried to make sense of intervals (in the old pdf as I recall) it made no sense.  Now with your explanations the mist clears a little more.  Still won't be requiring  '8)'s

Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2020, 12:14:34 pm »
The ambiguous character of 3rds continued

Let us now go through an entirely similar process for the 3rds on the G & B strings.
Here is each, this time labelled only with the note names and the character of the third they contain (Major or minor).



Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2020, 12:15:18 pm »


E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.

Online close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2020, 12:15:47 pm »


F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.

 

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