Author Topic: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy  (Read 7601 times)

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Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2020, 02:57:07 pm »
1] D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A

1  -  2  -  3  -  4  -  5  -  6  -  7
D  -  E  -  F# -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#

1  -  X   -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is D Major.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2020, 02:58:22 pm »
2] E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D

      1  -  X   -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is E minor.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2020, 02:59:28 pm »
3] F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E

            1   -  X  -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is F# minor.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2020, 03:01:10 pm »
4] G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#

                   1  -  X  -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is G Major.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2020, 03:02:45 pm »
5] A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G

                         1  -  X  -  3   -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is A Major.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2020, 03:04:10 pm »
6] B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A

                               1  -  X   -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is B minor.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2020, 03:06:53 pm »
7] C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G (the awkward diminished chord)

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B

                                     1   -  X  -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones, this is a minor third but this is a C# diminished chord, not C# minor.
This is due to the distance between its first and fifth. The six Major and minor chords have an interval of a ‘perfect fifth’ (seven semitones) between their first and fifth.
This diminished chord is unique in having a ‘diminished fifth’ interval (six semitones) between them. Enough of that here.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2020, 08:44:09 pm »
We will return to 3rds somewhere further along ... but there is a little more to explain and connect together first.
Having looked at the Major scale, chord construction using 'stacked thirds' (the first, third and fifth) then harmonising the Major scale, we will continue the journey with a look at open & barre chords, barre chords & triads, then triads will return us back to 3rds once again.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 09:09:43 pm by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 09:09:12 pm »
Open Chords and Barre Chords

When learning our first chords we learn open position chords. We learn five Major chords, E, D, A, C and G. The shapes / patterns of these give rise to what is called the CAGED system.
We also learn three minor chords; Em, Dm and Am.

Playing those chord shapes away from the nut, using only fingers 2 / 3 / 4, and with the index finger barring across the strings behind the shape, gives rise to moveable barre chords. All barre chords are derived from open position chord shapes.

All Major and minor open chord shapes (and hence the barre chords too) contain one or more triad shapes. All triads are the smallest possible shape that can be played as a Major or a minor chord, containing the three notes first, third and fifth.
We will now look at the open and barre CAGED shapes for Major and minor chords, simply to see these diagrammatically



Note that there are eight, not ten chord shapes. The C and G shapes do not give rise to a matching minor chord. So, in total, there are five foundation shapes (all Major) in the CAGED system, plus three minor shapes derived from the A, E and D shapes. Note also that, srictly speaking, no barre is needed for the D-shape chords.

The intervals are shown on each diagram.

Key:
= Root
= Major third
= minor third
= perfect fifth


Note the differences.
Major chords have a Major third, whereas minor chords are formed by lowering the third by one semitone, so contain a minor third.

Offline sairfingers

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2020, 09:13:46 pm »
Richard
I can’t believe your patience, interest and dedication to this site. No amount of good vibes is enough!!
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Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2020, 09:16:38 pm »
Barre Chords and Triads

Next we will take those barre chord shapes and pick out the triads within. For simplicity I am going to restrict this to only triads found on two sets of three adjacent strings, either on the D, G and B strings or on the G, B and E strings.





Note:

i] There are two instances of two CAGED shapes leading to the exact same triad shape.
The A-shape and the G-shape chords lead to the same Major triad on the D, G and B strings.
The D-shape and the C-shape chords lead to the exact same Major triad on the G, B and E strings.
(We shall return to this later in the thread.)

ii] For the D-Shape triads on the D, G and B strings, the triad shape is not a perfect overlay with the chord form. The third and flat third respectively need to be found a little higher on the D-string,  taken from the C-Shape chord which lies just ahead as you move along the neck. This may seem like cheating but … hey ho …
And this small alteration leads to a third instance of two CAGED shapes leading to the exact same triad shapes as in note [ i ].
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 08:15:52 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2020, 09:17:49 pm »
Richard
I can’t believe your patience, interest and dedication to this site. No amount of good vibes is enough!!

Thanks Gordon ... I appreciate you saying it. :)

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2020, 09:22:02 pm »
These last dozen or so posts have contained a lot of information. For some of you it may be a simple stroll along familiar paths. For others it may be new and difficult to comprehend and take in at first reading. So it is time for a short pause in the forward progression through this topic. Take time, re-read where necessary, read it with your guitar in hand to connect words and concepts with actual sounds of notes and chords and triads.
The next few steps will contain the 'big reveal' that takes us all the way back to the beginning of this venture .. knowing and playing the 3rds shapes on the guitar.
Please, please chime in with comments, questions and thoughts.
:)

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2020, 10:45:18 am »
The three triad shapes


Hopefully you have been able to take the time to read, scrutinise and digest the information and the  diagrams.


From the two sets of neck diagrams above we can see that there are three triad shapes for Major triads and for minor triads on the two string sets under consideration.

Triad shapes on the D, G & B strings (3 Major / 3 minor)



Triad shapes on the G, B & E strings (3 Major / 3 minor)



That is it. There are no other triad shapes on adjacent string sets.

Next we will start to see how these triad shapes lead to the shapes of the 3rds that we learned and began using at the start of the thread.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2020, 11:02:50 am »
Triads and thirds

A triad, within its formulation, will contain two intervals of a third. Let us return to the seven triads (chords) derived from harmonising the D Major scale. We can refer to the note circle once again to determine the nature of the two intervals of thirds within each chord formula.




Remember, 4 semitones is an interval of a Major third and 3 semitones is an interval of a minor third.

1] D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   
D to F# = Major third then F# to A = minor third.

2] E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B
E to G = minor third then G to B = Major third.

3] F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#
F# to A = minor third then A to C# = Major third.

4] G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D
G to B = Major third then B to D = minor third.

5] A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E
A to C# = Major third then C# to E = minor third.

6] B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#
B to D = minor third then D to F# = Major third.

7] C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G
C# to E = minor third then E to G = minor third

Note the alternating pattern.
Major chord triad formulae contain Major then minor thirds.
Minor chord triad formulae contain minor then Major thirds.
The diminished chord, as usual, does its own unique thing!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 08:18:32 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2020, 12:59:06 pm »
Shapes of 3rd

We can now revisit the twelve triad diagrams above with the intention of selecting all pairs of thirds in groups of ascending notes that either go from first to third or third to fifth. For all such pairings the notes have been changed to blue and other notes have been greyed out.
A few triad shapes contain two such pairs so all three notes are blue.
What we need to do here is look for any repeating patterns / shapes on the guitar neck.






There seem to be many pairs spread across these triad shapes. But in fact there are only two shapes for each pair on any given set of two adjacent strings. Just two.

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2020, 01:30:37 pm »
Shapes of 3rds on D & G then G & B then B & E strings



In previous diagrams, the notes were shown within the CAGED structure, and the triads were shown from within those chord shapes. So each was labelled with Root, third or fifth.
These 3rds deliberately show no labelling. They are only for illustrative purposes to show shapes on the guitar neck.
These shapes are moveable. What the notes are, and the nature of the two notes, whilst always being 3rds, will depend on where they are played. And their ‘sound’ will depend on what they are being played over … bass notes / chord etc. More of that to come.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 11:48:14 pm by close2u »

Offline DavidP

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2020, 02:01:03 pm »
Following along keenly, Richard.  I think this going to to be another that warrants book-marking for future reference.  You lay it all out in such a logical way.

In fact, I think there should be an area on the Forum for Richard's Expositions.  The chord tones was the first that I specifically recall that was valuable to me and this will be the second.

I know it is the Justin Guitar Forum but you've contributed so much over the few years I've been here, I am sure I'd get universal support for this suggestion.

And will have to be a future reference for me because the time is now for me to try and get my fingers around Steady Thumb Blues to be played on my resonator ... finally I can take that guitar down off its rack and begin to play the music on it for which it is so well suited :)

Offline sairfingers

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2020, 02:33:36 pm »
Following along keenly, Richard.  I think this going to to be another that warrants book-marking for future reference.
I agree with David. All great stuff but too much for me to take in at the moment. In the words of Arnold ‘I’ll be back’.
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Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2020, 09:05:26 pm »
@ David & Gordon.
You are both very kind and supportive.

I'm glad you are reading along and making some sense of it all. I totally understand that you have a focus on other learning just now.
I shall continue as I have much more to expound! :)

Offline Twilight Storm

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2020, 09:51:59 pm »
Love this, close2u. :) Thank you.

Didn't see you started this yet, until a couple days ago.
Just a noob who likes diminished chords and songs that use them.

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Offline CT

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2020, 06:11:55 am »
Cool beans! I doinked around with this for a bit, the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey, and have their place. It was a fun exercise.

I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context) at the moment. I just played about 8 bars or so of open A7 strums into my Trio to get some drum and bass backing in a loop. When the loop plays, hit the fingered A7 notes (D & B strings) at the same time and then move them up around to the 5th and 7th fret and back to open A7. Play some pentatonic licks while you're up at the 5th fret. Move farther up to the 12th and 14th fret, and do some more pentatonic riffs at the 12th fret. My fingers are really feeling it. Great fun! I'm going to do more dbl-stop exploration this week.

Thanks @close2u for lighting the fire.   

Offline Garfield

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2020, 07:35:07 am »
Whoa started reading but out of time I'll circle back. Thanks close

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Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2020, 10:20:15 am »
@ Twilight STorm ... glad you found and like it.

... the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey, and have their place. It was a fun exercise.
Chimey, sweet, happy and very, very major sounding with that D note droning in the bass. It is fun. It can go in other directions too ... :)

Quote
I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context) ... hit the fingered A7 notes (D & B strings) at the same time and then move them up around to the 5th and 7th fret and back to open A7 ... Move farther up to the 12th and 14th fret...
I believe you may have stumbled upon sixths (6ths). I agree, they are enormous fun. And sliding sixths is a real-cool blues move.
I'm very happy to have given a spark that lit a fire. :)


@ Garfield ... glad to see you checking this out. It is a thread for practical work and not just reading. Until you play the 3rds on the first set of TABs on the B & E strings and mess around with them, you don't need to continue reading. Read the thread with guitar in hand. :)

Offline close2u

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Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2020, 10:46:14 am »
... the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey ... I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context)

Here is a little something for you Clint.
Return to these 3rds as laid out within the thread so far and play them over a minor blues backing track in B minor.
Such as ...




Step out of playing them as just double stops. Mix your style by adding in sections when you play the notes separately. Connect the 3rds shapes by sliding up and down.

Hmmm.
How does that sound?

Anything worth posting over in Guitar Challenge 0008 in B minor?

 

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