Author Topic: Internet Group  (Read 2732 times)

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Offline CT

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2020, 05:55:43 pm »
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Isn't the knowledge to make it possible for like minded people to have social and artistic interaction, potentially across the globe, great skill as well? Getting all pompous-like :)
I didn't mean to be a dream smasher. You go and keep your hopes and dreams alive. Real time audio and video for a remote group is doable with some corporate level software such as Microsoft Teams and perhaps some others, over high speed connections. Don't let any of that crush your dream -- get a fat T1 pipe for everyone in your group, multi-user corporate level software and have a go at it. Keep us posted.   

Offline willsie01

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 06:39:09 pm »
I didn't mean to be a dream smasher. You go and keep your hopes and dreams alive. Real time audio and video for a remote group is doable with some corporate level software such as Microsoft Teams and perhaps some others, over high speed connections. Don't let any of that crush your dream -- get a fat T1 pipe for everyone in your group, multi-user corporate level software and have a go at it. Keep us posted.

No-one can smash my dreams, music-wise. I achieved them when I came across JustinGuitar and discovered my goal with the help of another forum member who alluded to campfire strumming, a term not really familiar to me: I realised common or garden campfire strummer was what I had inwardly yearned for all my life. And that was achieved quite quickly.
As to the rest of your suggestions I think I'll park the "fat T1 pipe..." & "...multi-user corporate level software..." and "just have a go at it.." for now. Thanks for your highly respected input but I think I might be a tad too busy to keep you posted. Looking forward, as ever, to hearing from you again. Stay well.

Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2020, 09:44:20 pm »
Listening in on a few groups in Spain Germany and Italy it could lead to something useful but I'm going to have to start learning how I'll input my vocals, acoustic & electric guitar etc and how I'll listen to the output.

Acoustic is probably the most challenging of these but, fundamentally, any decent-ish audio interface should work. After all, the aim of this is jamming with other people, not a recording studio setup. You can typically only play one instrument at a time so you really only need a single input. Of course if you sing as well, then a second could be useful, but you can still use a single input, and appropriate mic'ing.

If you need to locally monitor what you are playing on a line-level instrument (such as an electric guitar) then you really need an audio interface with local monitoring. If you run everything through a microphone then you won't need this, but getting the levels balance in the room will be trickier.

If you do have a USB mixer, or multi-channel sound card then getting the levels set up will be "easier" (in that you will have more control over them other than mic position).

Quote
Preferably not earphones, although I have a half decent audio-technic pair if they're compatible.

You are pretty much going to have to use headphones, especially with anything that needs a microphone.

Cheers,

Keith
Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
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Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2020, 10:28:23 pm »
No-one can smash my dreams, music-wise.

Yeah, I would stick to advice from people who understand this stuff, such as, maybe, a Telecommunications Engineer with 30 years of professional experience building and running networks across a range of disciplines including transmission trunk and access networks, wire-area LAN services, VoIP, Internet services, data centre builds, and Mobile networks.

I guess that could be me!

I also wouldn't bother with a T1. That's ancient technology, relatively speaking. I was putting in E1 (the European equivalent standard of a T1) and higher into customers back in the 1990s in the first ISP startup I was in. A T1 circuit today would be considered slow and I certainly wouldn't call it a "fat pipe" by modern standards. I bet most of your Jam buddies already have Internet services which far exceed a T1 so, as long as their PCs is running OK and they aren't streaming movies at the same time, bandwidth shouldn't be an issue.

Also you are on the right path looking at Open Source stuff. It's been the way the world has been moving for the last couple of decades, and even old proprietary behemoths like Microsoft have seen this.

Big Enterprise software has mostly been behind the curve for at least a decade or more, and would probably be the worst option to choose to try this, because it's simply not built for it as I suggested in my previous message. Big corporations generally don't need low-latency real-time AV communications, so none of the tools aimed at them support it. Enterprise communication is not going to cut it.

Guess what does need low-latency real-time capabilities? Telecommunications networks, like the small 4G MVNO I built and ran on my last project, and the large ground-up 5G network project I'm currently working on.

And guess what is at the heart of most of the commercial platforms that large telecommunications providers like Cisco and Nokia are supplying to these networks? Open Source software!

As I said earlier, to make this work, you need light-weight peer-to-peer communication, with specialist apps built to support it. That's about as far away from Enterprise systems as I can imagine.

So your best bet will be open source or specialist niche suppliers like JamKazam who understand the specific requirements and who have built platforms to support them.

All of the baseline tools (in term of technology component parts) needed to build this are available in open standards. WebRTC is one that springs to mind. This is well supported with Open Source libraries and other tools, and is baked into all modern browsers. But there's other options too and a lot of support with Open Source libraries and tools. For an example, most Linux distro's come with net jack and there are similar tools like Jack Trip which could be a starting point for something. I understand these tools can be used on Windows and Mac too, although the setup is a bit tricky.

Of course, whatever is chosen, these tools need to be assembled into a platform that can be used by everyday people. That's the biggest challenge in my view. As well as dealing with things like firewalls, NAT and IP addressing.

Anyway, I wish I had more time to play with this stuff myself but, unfortunately, I'm pretty busy at the moment. I should probably get on with it as I have a High Level Design for an International network expansion to put together.

Toodle-pip.

Keith
Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
Amps: Bugera G5 Head, Boss Katana 100
All sorts of other stuff.

Offline willsie01

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2020, 10:34:42 pm »


Toodle-pip.

Keith

Great info.
cheerio!

Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2020, 12:34:46 am »
By the way, whilst I think of it, it best to avoid using Wifi if you can. Wifi often adds 2-3 ms of latency. If every party is using wifi then that's 6ms end to end, and it can be worse than that if there's local interference or congestion.

If at all possible, everyone should use an ethernet cable between their PC and their router.

Cheers,

Keith
Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
Amps: Bugera G5 Head, Boss Katana 100
All sorts of other stuff.

Offline CT

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2020, 01:10:55 am »
Hey @Majik, why don't you put your big **** back in its holster. I go back to the early 90's with tech and worked for the first guy that logged into what would become the Internet at UCLA. The T1 line was a joke reference, and I use corporate communications software everyday over cable modem speeds, and it will do the job as I suggested. Good day to you, sir.   

Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2020, 01:27:17 am »
Err, no, it's you that needs a holstering.

It was not me who was bursting people's bubbles with outdated, inexpert, and generally inaccurate advice (with no hint of it being a joke).

And, no, Enterprise collaboration software apps will not support the types of low-latency real-time communication required for real-time jamming with multiple people. Believe me, it's been tried by many, including myself, and they don't work, which is why platforms like JamKazam exist in the first place.

Not only do I use these apps every day, but I build the infrastructure that supports them, and I work with teams who are writing some of the client apps and server software. Understanding, and mitigating, issues with real-time latency is something I do almost every day as part of my current projects.

So I suggest you wind your neck in.

Keith

Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
Amps: Bugera G5 Head, Boss Katana 100
All sorts of other stuff.

Offline CT

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2020, 02:29:52 am »
I don't dial down. Do you even play guitar?

Online close2u

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2020, 10:05:20 am »
Moderator intervention:

This conversation needs to take a little calm down moment please.

Thank you.

Offline willsie01

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2020, 06:11:29 pm »
Debating whether I should self isolate has slowed me down from looking more into this but I can tell you that my U3A guitar group held a first session using google hangout. As a first try it does look like it will allow us some way of staying in touch. We can all talk to each other. The group is working on one performer leading a song and everyone else is muted and can play along with them. The performer only hears themselves of course but the rest of the group hear themselves and the performer playing together. Members take it in turns to perform a song. Not perfect but it's something rather than nothing. Trying this again tomorrow.
My booking on a music recording workshop has been postponed because of Covid-19 so I'm starting to think of learning to use something like garage band(?) or other to record some members of the group collaborating. Some of us are interested in doing so. I'm thinking one member will record a part send it on to another to add their part, etc. I know some forum members collaborate on recording together so I'll keep my ears to the ground to learn how to do it. Hoping someone who knows how will advise me.

Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2020, 11:50:09 pm »
That's a great approach Willsie.

From the very first days of Google Hangouts (when it was one of the few things around) groups started doing similar things. All over Google+ (remember that) there were groups springing up doing similar things and having "Virtual Open Mic" sessions.

A group of technology nerds I still am friends with started that way and, for a while when Hangouts on Air started, we had a regular live weekly technology news panel show that had a growing. Now we still chat on Hangouts, but mainly use Jitsi for video calling.

The jam group I used to attend started a "virtual meet up" last night and we had a laugh and planned a few things including a Virtual pub quiz, and virtual open mics for those that want to perform. It was difficult for me as it was at 3am for me, but I set an alarm and I'm glad I did as we had fun.

Collaborating isn't that hard. The main thing is to understand how to import and export audio tracks from your DAW. That approach is best as it allows everyone to use a different DAW as not everyone will have Garageband, or want to use it.

Make sure you agree on the project settings including the audio sample rate and format, tempo, etc. If you can record a click track that may be a good idea as that can act as a tempo for others to align to. Or, if you want to be more organic (e.g. for a simple guitar/vocal collaboration) then don't bother with click track or tempo at all.

Good luck

Cheers,

Keith

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« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 12:33:43 am by Majik »
Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
Amps: Bugera G5 Head, Boss Katana 100
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Offline willsie01

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2020, 12:31:48 am »
Thanks for input Keith

Online DavidP

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2020, 05:21:30 am »
Thanks for input Keith

All sounds good there, Willsie.

I've nothing more specific to add to Keith's comments.  Can just say if you have more questions post them up; as you say there are active members here who have been doing this, from relative beginners like myself to the experienced like Roman and LBro.

Offline Majik

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Re: Internet Group
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2020, 05:40:10 am »
Oh, and another tip.

It's useful to use one of the cloud-based storage tools like Google Drive, Dropbox, or similar to share files.

This can include cue sheets and other documents. I have found Gsuite docs and sheets really useful for that, as they can be directly editted by multiple people at once with no need for downloading or emailing attachments or dealing with version issues.

Cheers,

Keith

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Guitars: PRS Singlecut S2, Fender Tele Lite Ash, G&L Legacy Tribute, Freshman Apollo 2 OCBX, Gibson SG Special P90
Amps: Bugera G5 Head, Boss Katana 100
All sorts of other stuff.

 

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