Author Topic: Teacher said next lesson: A song with a solo to learn and analyse in detail  (Read 1301 times)

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Offline emann

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Hello,

my local teacher has advised that I am at a good stage to find a tune and identify by ear the key, the chords for the rhythm and then proceed to learn its solo.  I did all exercises of the ear course with the transcribe software and was thinking to use this as well for my exercise.  He also advised me to really go into the detail of the solo and analyse what type of scale are the notes derived from and why is the particular scale used.

So my question to you and being the first time I am going to do this, have you done this before any other time and if so which tune did you choose that was challenging but not that difficult to do.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks.

Offline stitch101

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So my question to you and being the first time I am going to do this, have you done this before any other time and if so which tune did you choose that was challenging but not that difficult to do.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks.

When I leart how to play there was no internet or transcibe softwear. So I'll say yes
because that was the only way to learn.

Seeing how there is the internet and transcribing softwear I see no reason not to take
full advantage and use it.

As for a song, start with a song you know well and can sing or atleast know the words.
Pick a artist you really like and take your time. Little bits at a time.

I usually start with the finding the Key then start with the hardest part first.
This way you will know right away if you've bit off more than you can chew.
Nothing worst than learning a song all the way up to the hardest part then quiting
because it above your pay grade.

Have you looked at Justin's lessons on transcibing there is a lot of great info to pick
throuh.

Offline close2u

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Hello,

my local teacher has advised that I am at a good stage to find a tune and identify by ear the key, the chords for the rhythm and then proceed to learn its solo.

Well congrats - that is a sure sign of the progress you must be making.

Quote
  ... He also advised me to really go into the detail of the solo and analyse what type of scale are the notes derived from and why is the particular scale used.
That is some much deeper stuff and I'd see this as an optional extra bonus-type of thing.

Quote
Any suggestions appreciated.

I see two possible criterion you could think of applying ...

blues-y ... which means basically a variety of 12-bar chord progression in dominant 7ths or minor in swung 4/4 time or a mellow 6/8 time.
You'd likely be picking a solo using blues scale with maybe other embellishment notes.

Or

Melodic pop-rock perhaps with lots of the classic 4-chord progression liberally sprinkled through verses / chorus etc and a solo that you could easily whistle / hum which gives you a straight forward catchy tune to try and snag in the transcribing.

Offline emann

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Hi and thanks for the input.

I am thinking on the lines of comfortably numb at the moment...a tune that i really like.  I am also fond of guns and roses tunes.


I would really like to mix playing the chords on my acoustic as a backing track and then use the strat for the solo parts.

So do you think that this tune is above is easy to start with...or any suggestions that you may advise are easy from guns and roses maybe.

thanks.

Offline close2u

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Comfortably Numb is easy chords but the solo is something else ... not so hard to transcribe perhaps but to play. Gilmour uses many difficult bending techniques.
I'm not a big G&R fan so leave any recommendation of them to someone else.

I have had a thought ... something I tried to learn many, many moons ago.

Tangerine by Led Zeppelin.
Fairly easy chords - with a few embellishments and some occasional single note runs.
A short and sweet solo that has a classic structure to it ... melodic beginning, development, crescendo and a flourish to finish it off.




Listen carefully to get your ears past the layers of guitars, the 12-string, lap steel etc and just listen to the movement of the chords. You should recognise them all.

Online KasperFauerby

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Pick a song where the solo is very melodic, where you can hum or sing the lines. Don't go for fast shredding stuff. Comfortably Numb is a good one, and if you like Guns I would suggest for example their version of "Knocking on Heavens Door".

In both cases, to do a bit of analysis on the solos, you should focus on trying to see where the artist targets chord notes from the underlying chord progression... and try to identify use of arpeggios. Both of these two players will sometimes blend those in with the more scalar playing they also do.

Offline emann

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Tangerine...i almost forgot how much I used to love this song.

and thanks also for the Guns and Roses suggestion..yes that is good and brilliant solo as well.

Offline stitch101

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As already stated Comfortably Numb is not to difficult to transcribe but
David Gilmour is really hard to master. He has such perfect technique.
If you can even get close as your first solo you can be very proud of your self.

Tangerine and G&R Knocking on Heavens Door would  be good. G&R Patience
is another easy solo and has alot of chord embelishment and runs between chords.
The hard part is picking which guitar part to play. Slash plays mostly arpeggios.

Offline stitch101

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Another easy solo to start with is Smells Like Teen Spirit
The whole solo is played in the middle of the neck and is easy to hum in your head.

Offline emann

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Hi Again,

so I started the exercise on the tune Patience from Guns and Roses.

It took me some time this afternoon but I think  I am getting there...maybe I get some confirmation theory wise.

First please listen to the intro which I layered on reaper.  In my opinion I could make out the chords as C, G, A, D and then I layered over the melody.

Furthermore I think also that in the progression the tune proceeds with C, G, C, Em,C, G, D.

Am i correct in saying that the tune is in the key of G then? playing the I, IV, V and then the ii and vi?  However the A chord is played as major as well so that it does not make it in the key of G.  Also in the key of C, A is a minor type and this is where I cannot understand how to find the key of this tune.

Any help appreciated and please provide your feedback on the mp3 as well.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RqfxQlucw5QeSF0fUo0BOdpL9YPLXxeR

Thankyou.

Offline stitch101

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You're on the right track and yes its in the key of G.
The A comes in from a little trick using the 5th of the 5th.
All this means is you can subsitute the ii chord with the V of the V
In other words the D is the V of G and the A is the V of D.
That's the theory behind it.
In reality you can make the ii chord Major because it sounds good.
And if it sound good it is good.

Offline emann

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hello stitch..thanks to reply.

not sure I am understanding this correctly...ok it sounds good as a major chord but A should be a minor in this case for the key of G and as well A minor does not really sound good if played instead of the A major....up to now i did not learn this in the theory with the teacher and  I think it is the first song I come across where a minor can be played as a major as well.

Apart of this, when it comes to the solo and in trying to find the correct notes, should I look these on the scale of G i.e. major, pentatonics etc?

Offline stitch101

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The theory has something to do with secondary dominant chords.
Theory is not my strong point.
The song Hey Joe by Jimi Hendrix is C G D A E. These chords are all the V of the V
G is the V chord of C. D is the V chord of G. A is the V chord of D. E is the V chord of A.
Writing Hey Joe out in numbers is I, V/V,  V/V,  V/V,  V/V

So if you try to find the key of Hey Joe you'd  be scratching your head beause in the
Key of C the D E and A should all be minor. The reason Hey Joe works is because
all the chords are V chords of the previous chord.
This is the same theory behind Patience. The A is major because it is the V chord of D.
The V chord can be played right before or rignt after a Root chord and it sounds good.

Slash plays mostly in the Major scale or Major pentatonic.

Offline emann

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that makes much more sense now and I understand that it is good because it is the fifth of the previous chord.

so off to more practice now.

thanks a lot stitch101

Offline close2u

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....up to now i did not learn this in the theory with the teacher and  I think it is the first song I come across where a minor can be played as a major as well
Well done on getting this far.

You have raised something that I see as a big issue & drawback with your teacher's idea of homework.

Your teacher knows the extent of your physical ability & your theoretical knowledge.
The open ended nature of this means you could stumble down a wormhole of harmonic compl it's when it comes to playing and analysing the solo & the chords.
Knowing what they know about you & your general taste in music a better task would have been to narrow the choices you could have faced & been a little more prescriptive with song selections.

It happened to Lee in the Captain's Private's video lessons.
Lee said he loves Clapton so Justin told him to go transcribe a favourite song. Justin didn't know the song & it turned out to be beyond Lee so the idea was shelved & it was not such a useful exercise after all.

Good luck - at least with this one it is still fairly straightforward.

Offline emann

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hi close2u...yes this is quite new but there again it is more to learn.

I will also try to look up this theoretical concept and then ask my teacher about....if by chance you have any links that explain this in detail then please let me know.

Offline stitch101

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Hope this helps and makes sense.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord

Offline emann

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stitch101...perfect..that is a really great and detailed explanation.

thanks a lot.

Offline Matt125

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You have raised something that I see as a big issue & drawback with your teacher's idea of homework.

Your teacher knows the extent of your physical ability & your theoretical knowledge.
The open ended nature of this means you could stumble down a wormhole of harmonic complexity when it comes to playing and analysing the solo & the chords


I tend to agree with close2u on this. Rock songs are often non diatonic. You often play chords that are not strictly diatonic. You very frequently play a minor pentatonic scale over a major chord progression. Why? Because it just sounds good. Since many rock songs “don’t follow the rules” it can be quite difficult and confusing when trying to determine the key. Keep in mind that music theory is descriptive not prescriptive.

I recently came across the video below which expands on these ideas.  On the one hand I was a little reluctant to post it because it has a lot of technical information which can be difficult to follow. On the other hand it gives a great message about how to think about songs that don’t follow the rules. So don’t worry too much if it is overly technical.

Well done with your analysis so far.

“What makes ROCK sound like ROCK?”



Offline emann

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Thanks Matt125...aaa Paul Davids...one of my other favourite teachers...I was lucky to get his next level guitar course as an early xmas gift from my wifeyy...i really like this guy and I also appreciate your input into this thread and encouragement Matt.

Offline stitch101

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Did you notice the 5 chords he mentions as the first 5 chords learnt on a guitar
just happen to be the 5 chords of the CAGED system?
That is because that is how the neck of a guitar is layed out.

Offline emann

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as an update...this is were i arrived till now (please copy link in browser)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WzJWdh0dcZt83RwghCEVmU_5hk0skKeQ

kindly advise your thoughts please.

Now I am also attaching a tab of what i am playing for the solo part in order to understand what notes and scale is being used.  First I hope that I am using the correct notes but from transcribe these are really the closest I can match.  Secondly these are the first notes of the solo but for goodness sake none of the notes are in the G major scale or pentatonics right?  so quite confused at this stage.

c# -f #- g# - a# - c# - g# - f#

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HcHtumTM8Sp2zBiv9

any help?

Offline stitch101

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Are you tuned to Eb.
I haven't played patiance with the original recording for many years but I'm
sure it's in Eb tuning. I think all G&R tunes are in Eb tuning.

Offline emann

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aaww...that explains it all...i could hear that i was sure that i am matching the notes of the solo but then when played against the chords could notice something seems not right...

thanks to point this out.

Offline stitch101

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I checked your tabs and if you're playing in standard tuning that's what is off.
If you want to play in standard tuning tune the original in transcribe up 1/2 a step
or tune your guitar down 1/2 a step. You'll need to adjust your tabs for the tuning.

If you need to jump up more than 5 notes pick a note on the next thinest string instead.
The less you need to move your hand the smother your playing will be.

 

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