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Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 10:44:35 pm »
Whilst watching the mighty Tigers stumble to a 1-0 defeat at home to Blackburn Rovers the scales fell from my eyes about modes.

Its nearly past my bedtime so I'll leave my re3velations until tomorrow until tomorrow.

My impression from the lesson stitch101 posted is not to learn 5 positions of a scale without first using the first position to make music. I used the first position of the pentatonic minor scale on three different frets to make music and listen to the results. To me that is in keeping with Justin's advice in his exploring the major scale lessons. The music sounds ok, nothing brilliant but so what? I broke out of playing just the one pentatonic scale in different positions.

Keith

Offline stitch101

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 10:48:54 pm »
Notice Justin says at the 1 minute mark of the first blue lesson close posted
when playing the A dorian mode you are thinking in the key of A , Aminor blues.

This is what I was trying to get across to Keith when he hept saying he was playing
the E minor pent over D. You don't  think E minor you think in the key of D
If you think in E minor you will play e minor which isn't playing in modes.

Richard tell the web techs theses lessons don't  come up in the search on the site.

Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2019, 11:56:41 pm »

Richard tell the web techs theses lessons don't  come up in the search on the site.
Yeah - I knew they existed and had to manually find them.
I'm thinking many good and valuable lessons have lost their linking somehow.
Thanks for noticing too.
I'll follow it up tomorrow.
If I had dozens of hours I could probably find all the lost lessons and alert Justin.

Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 12:25:13 am »
Addendum.

See these neck diagrams for a visual on pattern 1 A minor pentatonic, pattern 2 G Major and pattern 1 A Dorian.





I made a pdf of these diagrams - just click here to download


Pattern 1, the E-shape, of the A minor pentatonic 'combines' with pattern 2, D-shape, of the G Major scale to yield pattern 1, E-shape, of the A Dorian scale.

Offline stitch101

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 01:43:45 am »
One I was looking for earlier in this thread was the one on the minor pent,
hybrid, and dorian scale.  If I can think of other lessons I'll let you know.
Try and save you some time.

Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 07:20:14 am »
How I ended up playing modes in parallel without knowing

Whilst at the KCOM watching the mighty Tigers lose last night I realised all the notes in the Em, F#m and Bm pentatonic scales are in the D major scale. Whilst messing around with those shapes all I was playing was the D major scale. I'm really surprised nobody spotted it and said.

However that doesn't mean I wasn't playing modes because I was. I was playing modes in parallel. That's because the tonic note of the riff changed as I switched positions.

When I played the opening riff in the Bm pentatonic shape the tonic was F#, ie the Phrygian mode. When I played the riff in the Em pentatonic position the tonic was B ie the Aeolian mode and when I played in the F# pentatonic shape the tonic was C# ie the Locrian mode. If you listen to the opening track you can hear how dark the F# riff sounds compared to the other two. Not a surprise if its in Locrian.

This is Justin's lesson on modes in parallel. He also mentions playing a D chord for 16 measures, albeit with the A major scale.

https://www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/modes-in-series-sc-505

By adding a different tonic in the melody the nature of D chord changes and may no longer be a D chord. Now that would make my head explode.

Modes in series

I also realised what I needed to do to play modes in series rather than just playing the major scale. When I played in the  Em pentatonic position I had to play the C note from the Em (G major) scale as its the only note that's different from the D major scale. Playing the C is what gives the melody its modal flavour. C is not in the pentatonic scale so I'd have to add it when playing in that position.

When I played the F#m (A major) scale I had to add the G# note to give my playing a modal flavour.

Bm is that natural minor of the D major scale so there are no additional notes to add.

Conclusion

By playing modes in parallel I can change the tonic note in a melody to alter the sound of the chord played by the rhythm section. That gives the music a different mood. Some notes will be simple extensions of the chord meaning you'll hear little difference whilst some tonics will have a more extreme effect.

To play modes in series you need to identify which major scale each mode is based on and concentrate on the notes that are not in the home major scale, in my recorded example D. 

For DavidP and others who may be thinking of giving modal playing a go I hope this is helpful. Its certainly clarified my thinking about modes and how to use them.

Keith



Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2019, 04:01:37 pm »
Here's what I've learnt since I opened this thread. Any questions about how I did this please ask.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/modes-2/s-BE2Xy

If I've got it right its in D Phrygian.

Keith

Offline DarrellW

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2019, 04:34:44 pm »
Yup, that’s Phrygian! It’s got that ‘Eastern’ sound about it that’s characteristic of Phrygian mode - funnily enough it was this mode that first generated my interest in modes.
Still here, still learning - no longer letting Fibromyalgia get in the way, it sucks but doesn’t have to mean your life stops!

Offline Garfield

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2019, 08:17:07 pm »
I love this thread....I'll revisit this one day when I'm ready. Thanks Keith, close and stitch

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Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2019, 07:38:48 am »
@ Keith.
I should have addressed your posts earlier. Apologies for that. And apologies that a] this is lengthy b] it corrects some misunderstandings.
 
Quote from: diademgrove
... I recorded a simple rhythm track (this one is just D major).
I then played a simple riff using the first position of the Bm pentatonic scale (Aeolian mode).
Moved the riff up to the Em pentatonic (Dorian mode)
back to Bm minor
down to the F#m pentatonic (Phrygian mode)
back to Bm.
I then played a second riff and made the same shifts between the pentatonic positions.
Finally I repeated the first riff.
Okay, you are playing over a static chord of D Major. Let’s lay out the notes of the D Major scale.
D Major
D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#
1 – 2 –  3 – 4 – 5 – 6 - 7

Now let’s look at the three minor pentatonic scales you played alongside the three modal scales you approximate those pentatonics to.
B minor pentatonic          B Aeolian
B - D - E – F# - A          B - C# -  D - E - F# -  G -  A
                            1 -  2 – b3 – 4 -  5 – b6 - b7

You are thinking of the B minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of B Aeolian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the B minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the C# and the G. Crucially the G note is the b6 and is a vital flavour to hearing the Aeolian sound.as distinct from Dorian or Phrygian. This riff will sound minor but not necessarily Aeolian. The five notes of the B minor pentatonic scale are also fully within B Dorian  [B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A ] and B Phrygian [ B – C – D – E – F# - G – A ]. By playing a riff based only on the five notes of the B minor pentatonic, you are not specifying any one of these three minor type modes. Playing the G narrows it down to Aeolian or Phrygian. Playing the C# and the G ensures it is Aeolian only.
Note – the backing track D Major chord (triad notes D – A – F#) fit alongside the B Aeolian as the b3, 5 and 7. You could view the chord as Bm7.
E minor pentatonic          E Dorian
E - G - A - B - D           E – F# -  G – A – B – C# -  D
                            1 -  2 – b3 – 4 – 5 -  6 - b7

You are thinking of the E minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of E Dorian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the E minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the F# and the C#. Crucially the C# note is the natural 6 and it is this interval that separates Dorian from the Phrygian and Aeolian modes. They are also minor type modes but both have a b6.
Note – the backing track D Major chord (triad notes D – A – F#) fit alongside the E Dorian as the 2, 4 and b7. You could view the chord as E9sus4.

F# minor pentatonic          F# Phrygian
F# - A - B - C# - E          F# -  G –  A – B – C# -  D -  E
                              1 – b2 – b3 – 4 -  5 – b6 - b7

You are thinking of the F# minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of F# Phrygian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the F# minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the G and the D. This riff will have the minor sound and cannot be Dorian as it has a b6 not a natural 6. But crucially, without playing the G note (the unique Phrygian b2) it is missing the vital interval that separates Phrygian from Aeolian.
Note – the backing track D Major chord (triad notes D – A – F#) fit alongside the B Aeolian as the 1, b3 and b6. The chord has no distinct name I can deduce if F# is the root, but is a type of minor.


 
Quote from: diademgrove
How I ended up playing modes in parallel without knowing
… I realised all the notes in the Em, F#m and Bm pentatonic scales are in the D major scale. Whilst messing around with those shapes all I was playing was the D major scale. I'm really surprised nobody spotted it and said.
Yes – and a good spot.
Quote
However that doesn't mean I wasn't playing modes because I was. I was playing modes in parallel. That's because the tonic note of the riff changed as I switched positions.
Correction.
Modes in parallel means the root of each mode stays the same: A Dorian, A Phrygian, A Aeolian etc.
Your playing was using modes in series – all derived from the same Major scale using all the same notes (in this instance, notes from the D Major scale).

Quote
When I played the opening riff in the Bm pentatonic shape the tonic was F#, ie the Phrygian mode. When I played the riff in the Em pentatonic position the tonic was B ie the Aeolian mode and when I played in the F# pentatonic shape the tonic was C# ie the Locrian mode. If you listen to the opening track you can hear how dark the F# riff sounds compared to the other two. Not a surprise if its in Locrian.
You need to re-assess this a little Keith. And what you state here mistakenly runs counter to what you described in your original post – the one I have used in detail so far in this reply. When you say ‘the tonic was F# … the tonic was B’ etc do you mean the starting note of the riff? The starting note does not equate with the tonic or the mode being used.

Quote
By adding a different tonic in the melody the nature of D chord changes and may no longer be a D chord. Now that would make my head explode.
(see above) I have written a brief Note on this for each of the three positions you used.

Quote
When I played in the  Em pentatonic position I had to play the C note from the Em (G major) scale as its the only note that's different from the D major scale.
Confusing. Forget G Major. You need to play C# for the b6 Dorian modal flavour, not C. See above. To use the E minor pentatonic as an approximation for E Dorian you need to realise the notes derive from D Major not G Major.
Quote
When I played the F#m (A major) scale I had to add the G# note to give my playing a modal flavour.
Confusing also. Forget A Major. You need to play G for the b2 Phrygian modal flavour, not G#. See above. To use F# minor pentatonic as an approximation for F# Phrygian you need to realise the notes derive from D Major not A Major.
Quote
Bm is that natural minor of the D major scale so there are no additional notes to add.
Yes – to make it definitely sound Aeolian, you need to add the C# and the G (see above).


Quote
By playing modes in parallel I can change the tonic note in a melody to alter the sound of the chord played by the rhythm section. That gives the music a different mood. Some notes will be simple extensions of the chord meaning you'll hear little difference whilst some tonics will have a more extreme effect.
I’m confused by this.
Modes in parallel = modes with the same root note = different scales all derived from different parent Major scales.
Quote
To play modes in series you need to identify which major scale each mode is based on and concentrate on the notes that are not in the home major scale, in my recorded example D. 
Your example in D is an example of playing modes in series yes. But all using the same parent Major scale – namely D Major.

Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2019, 08:22:21 am »
Addendum.
I meant to include these neck diagrams in my reply above.
They show the 1st pattern E-shape minor pentatonics that Keith plays, below each of which are the modal scales he mentions them approximating to in his original posting audio clip.




click this link to download as a pdf

:)

Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2019, 10:05:18 am »
Thanks Richard. This thread shows how easy it is for someone who doesn't really understand the theory to confuse people that do.

Following Justin's advice on exploring the major scale, ie make music rather than play the scales up and down I tried to apply it to the D major modes by using the minor pentatonic scale shape. I had no intention of playing in the keys of Em, Bm or F#m, I just messed about with the pentatonic shape over a D chord to try and explore the D major parallel modes.

I now realise that when I thought I was playing D Dorian using the 1st pentatonic scale at the 12th fret I wasn't. I was playing D Mixolydian but I excluded the one note that defines that mode C#. The same is true for the Bm and the F#m. I intended to play modes in D but because all the notes are in the D major scale I didn't get the unique flavour of the parallel modes I was trying to use. I was playing both the major scale and the mode. Although nobody would guess I was playing the relevant mode :)

Sorry about confusing modes in series and in parallel. My brain fails to work properly sometimes, especially when the link I posted clearly says its modes in series :) I blame carelessness or fatigue.

What is the tonic of a musical piece? An interesting question that may have many answers. Does the tonic note of the piece have to be in the opening chord? Is the opening chord always the 1st or tonic chord? Could be, but doesn't have to be.

In my opening riffs I played 3 notes, the first note twice. That note could be seen as the tonic with the riff remaining unresolved, or resolving to a chord tone as it does in one riff. With the knowledge I have now I would have extended the riff to make it clearer what the tonic note is. Or maybe not if I was being devilish.

By looking at the riffs as modes in series I can begin to understand the unique flavour of the modes when played over a D major chord.

If I understand the theory correctly, the function of the D major chord changes with each tonic note.

The riffs don't sound partly interesting until you get to the one starting on C#. I would never have found that by reading the theory. I accidently found it by messing about on the guitar using what little misunderstood knowledge I had and listening.

The result of being confused is I now have a better understanding of modes. More importantly a whole new world opened up when, in my misguided attempt to play D Phrygian, I played  C# over a D chord.

Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2019, 11:06:01 am »
@ Keith
... I now realise that when I thought I was playing D Dorian using the 1st pentatonic scale at the 12th fret I wasn't. I was playing D Mixolydian but I excluded the one note that defines that mode C#.

D Mixolydian?
Definitely not Mixolydian.
As I described, the minor pentatonic pattern 1 at fret 12, over a D Major chord, is an approximate for any of the three minor modes E Dorian, E Phrygian or E Aeolian. Because each of these three modes contain intervals 1, b3, 4, 5 and b7 - which match the five of the minor pentatonic exactly. Unless the crucial missing intervals are played (either a natural or flat 2 and a natural or flat 6 it is impossible to determine which mode is being approximated.


Quote
Sorry about confusing modes in series and in parallel. My brain fails to work properly sometimes, especially when the link I posted clearly says its modes in series :) I blame carelessness or fatigue.
Your brain has gone feral! ha ha

Quote
What is the tonic of a musical piece? An interesting question that may have many answers. Does the tonic note of the piece have to be in the opening chord? Is the opening chord always the 1st or tonic chord? Could be, but doesn't have to be.
The tonic is the root note of a scale or root chord of a progression in a key.
It is definitely not the note that happens to be played first or last in a compostion or riff.

Quote
In my opening riffs I played 3 notes, the first note twice. That note could be seen as the tonic with the riff remaining unresolved, or resolving to a chord tone as it does in one riff.
No.
The tonic of each riff, as you moved the scale to different positions, is basically the root of the modal scale. When playing the minor pentatonic at fret 7 the tonic / root is B When playing at fret 12 the tonic / root is E. When playing at fret 2 the tonic / root is F#.

Quote
With the knowledge I have now I would have extended the riff to make it clearer what the tonic note is. Or maybe not if I was being devilish.
What would make it clearer is by playing the unique identifying notes that I outlined above. I'll paste it again here. Note: these specific notes are only the unique identifiers for these scales as you played. The better way to think of them is as unique intervals - which means you can have a more widely applicable understanding for different keys.

B minor pentatonic          B Aeolian
B - D - E – F# - A          B - C# -  D - E - F# -  G -  A
                            1 -  2 – b3 – 4 -  5 – b6 - b7

You are thinking of the B minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of B Aeolian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the B minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the C# and the G. Crucially the G note is the b6 and is a vital flavour to hearing the Aeolian sound.as distinct from Dorian or Phrygian. This riff will sound minor but not necessarily Aeolian. The five notes of the B minor pentatonic scale are also fully within B Dorian  [B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A ] and B Phrygian [ B – C – D – E – F# - G – A ]. By playing a riff based only on the five notes of the B minor pentatonic, you are not specifying any one of these three minor type modes. Playing the G narrows it down to Aeolian or Phrygian. Playing the C# and the G ensures it is Aeolian only.

E minor pentatonic          E Dorian
E - G - A - B - D           E – F# -  G – A – B – C# -  D
                            1 -  2 – b3 – 4 – 5 -  6 - b7

You are thinking of the E minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of E Dorian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the E minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the F# and the C#. Crucially the C# note is the natural 6 and it is this interval that separates Dorian from the Phrygian and Aeolian modes. They are also minor type modes but both have a b6.

F# minor pentatonic          F# Phrygian
F# - A - B - C# - E          F# -  G –  A – B – C# -  D -  E
                              1 – b2 – b3 – 4 -  5 – b6 - b7

You are thinking of the F# minor pentatonic as an approximation to the modal scale of F# Phrygian. You have the 1, b3 and 5 so are able to highlight the F# minor tonic chord. The two missing notes from your approximation are the G and the D. This riff will have the minor sound and cannot be Dorian as it has a b6 not a natural 6. But crucially, without playing the G note (the unique Phrygian b2) it is missing the vital interval that separates Phrygian from Aeolian.

Quote
By looking at the riffs as modes in series I can begin to understand the unique flavour of the modes when played over a D major chord.
You will taste the flavour fully only when you make and play some riffs that use the unique identifying intervals I have just mentioned. Otherwise the 5-note pentatonic scale only hints at a minor mode (of which there are three) without narrowing it down to one specific mode.

Quote
If I understand the theory correctly, the function of the D major chord changes with each tonic note.
Kind of. Not really the function - more the sound it creates along with the notes of the riff. Your riff at fret 7 makes the D Major chord sound like a Bm7. It is functioning as a 'tonic chord'. Your riff at fret 12 makes it sound like E9sus4. It is functioning as a tonic chord here too. Your riff at fret 2 makes it sound vague ... . Looked at from the perspective of the F# tonic note of F# Phrygian you have the formula 1, b3, b6. Mmmh. Alternatively, looked at as a set of notes, you have just D, F# and A which makes it a D Major triad. That would allow it to be seen as the VI chord from harmonising F# Phrygian (same as harmonising a minor scale).

Quote
The riffs don't sound partly interesting until you get to the one starting on C#. I would never have found that by reading the theory. I accidently found it by messing about on the guitar using what little misunderstood knowledge I had and listening.

The result of being confused is I now have a better understanding of modes. More importantly a whole new world opened up when, in my misguided attempt to play D Phrygian, I played  C# over a D chord.

Accidental discoveries from messing about can be great. As can the knowledge from studying them after. The latter is not essential unless you want to explain / describe to others.
Remember, the C# note over a D Major chord is the natural 2 when playing Aeolian (a vital flavour note), the natural 6 when playing Dorian (a vital flavour note) or the 5 when playing phrygian (just a note if I may be so bold as to seem to denigrate the important 5th in that way).



Is this all coming together?

:)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 11:59:28 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2019, 11:06:45 am »
btw

I think this thread should reside elsewhere in the forum as it is so much more than an avoyp thread.

Offline MrBumble

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2019, 11:52:15 am »
Richard, I think this is one of those threads which needs to be pinned for posterity.

Most of it makes my head hurt at the moment - but I'm only starting to delve into the theory of music.
It is a thread I'd like to be able to find and come back to when I need it.
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Offline DavidP

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2019, 04:11:40 pm »
Here's what I've learnt since I opened this thread. Any questions about how I did this please ask.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/modes-2/s-BE2Xy

If I've got it right its in D Phrygian.

Keith

Sounded good, Keith, regardless of which mode it was   :o

Offline stitch101

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 05:16:29 pm »
Quote

Quote from: diademgrove

    How I ended up playing modes in parallel without knowing
    … I realised all the notes in the Em, F#m and Bm pentatonic scales are in the D major scale. Whilst messing around with those shapes all I was playing was the D major scale. I'm really surprised nobody spotted it and said.

I did spot this and explained it to you in post #8 Maybe not as elegantly as Close did but
 
Quote
Keith your understanding of modes is flawed.
Modes are based on the notes of the major scale not the  Chords in that scale.

For example you don't play the E minor Scale over the D. If you notice in the video
Darrell posted Joe is starting each mode in the same root note.
The D major Scale D E F# G A B C# D
The Dorian Scale in D is the intervals of 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
D E F G A B C D which would be played over a Dm
The E minor Scale  E F# G A B C D E
If you arrange the notes of the E minor scale in the key of D you get
D E F# G A B C D this is the 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 intervals which is the Mixolydian mode

The notes in the F# minor scale are F# G# A B C# D E F Arranged for the key of D
They are the intervals of 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 which is the Lydian mode in the key of D


Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 05:21:44 pm »
We're still misunderstanding each other Richard.

It was stitch 101 who said it was mixolydian, he said it was G mixolydian although in his lesson on parallel modes Justin calls it C mixolydian when C is the tonic. Presumably if you go forward one whole tone to D the mixolydian mode also travels the same distance from F in Justin's example to G (of which is the same scale as Em). So the mixolydian mode in D major is the G major scale.

I just wanted to hear what the parallel mode of G mixolydian (I misnamed it D Dorian) sounded like over a D chord. To do that I needed to include the note C. By playing the notes in the pentatonic position at the 12th fret I failed because that position didn't include C.

When I recorded a melody and posted it on this thread in D Phrygian I played it on the 3rd fret with my fingers in the minor pentatonic position. I added in the notes that give the Phrygian mode its flavour, Bb and Eb. The important thing, at least to me, is not the position but the notes you play.

I'm sure now the door is ajar I'll have some more questions.

Offline stitch101

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2019, 05:43:06 pm »
The PMS of D Mixolydian is G but you kept talking in minor pentatonic this is
Why in my post I laid the note E minor scale to show you how it fits the D Mixolydian
mode.
The in post #10 I explained why the G major scale was the mixolydian mode of D

Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2019, 07:57:31 pm »
The PMS of D Mixolydian is G but you kept talking in minor pentatonic this is
Why in my post I laid the note E minor scale to show you how it fits the D Mixolydian
mode.
The in post #10 I explained why the G major scale was the mixolydian mode of D

If I played D D G A D D B A D over a D chord with my first finger on the 12th fret, my 2nd on the 13th fret, my 3rd on the 14th and my 4th on the 15th what major key would I be in? What if I added an E after the third D, what key would I be in? If I used all 6 strings to play those notes what key would I be in? If I mapped out these notes on a fretboard, like Richard has done, what scale would it look like?

By using the minor pentatonic pattern I can transpose the above notes and remain in the key of D by moving my first finger to the second fret and playing the same pattern on the same strings. I see no reason why that wouldn't count as playing modes in series. The tonic has changed from D to E but its still notes from the D major scale and the chord hasn't changed. 

It isn't playing modes in parallel because I'm avoiding all the exotic notes that give each individual mode its character.

I like the first position of the pentatonic scale and now I know what I need to add to it to play modes in parallel I'll continue to use it. As you said there's no point in learning new scales unless you know how to use the ones you've already learned.

We each learn in a different way. If I understood what you and Richard posted I would have been an expert on modes along time ago. Unfortunately I need to hear my own modal playing is for it to sink in. The first track I posted was, unintentionally, modal playing in a roundabout way but the second is definitely the D Phrygian mode.

Keith

Offline diademgrove

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2019, 09:42:50 am »
Things I've learned from this thread

Using the minor pentatonic pattern caused confusion for everybody but me. I wasn't playing Em pentatonic but just using the shape because I was comfortable with it.

All the notes in the Em pentatonic scale are also in the key of D major. The missing notes are F# and C#, the third and the 7th of D major. When I moved the position to other frets the missing notes and their position in the scale change. This is theoretically interesting but best left for another day.

To play a parallel mode and make it sound like that mode I add the notes from the relevant major scale the mode is based on that are not included in the D major scale. 

I now know how to identify modes in parallel for the D major scale. With a bit of thought I can transpose these modes to other major scales.

I've played a melody in D Phrygian

The chord of love (the major 7th) sounds anything but if you play the 7th note of the scale in the bass as a melody note over a D major. You can hear this in the first track I posted.

Now I have a basis of playing parallel modes so I should explore them by playing the guitar.

I think that's more than enough thinking for now.

Online Endureth

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2019, 01:28:52 pm »
All 7 modes fit into the same major scale.  Imagine drawing all the notes of the major scale out on the fretboad, then splitting that fretboard into 7 sections, with each section being a different mode.

It takes all 7 modes to make up the the full major scale because then it starts over.  It works just like the pentatonic scale in that regard (except the pentatonic being only 5 'patterns' (because there are only 5 notes)).

Observe this picture.  Observe there are 7 modes.  Observe that all the same notes are represented in each mode with different starting notes.  Realize it's just a way to organize.

If you pretend this picture is displaying the C Major scale, you will realize that if you call out the notes on the on the bottom string you can call out the scale and find no sharps or flats anywhere because every note within these 7 sections are ALL make up the C Major scale.  You'll see that each note on the E string is the first note of each mode as well (with the arrows pointing at them).


« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 01:53:37 pm by Endureth »

Offline Gregg Hermetech

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Re: My initial approach to playing modes
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2019, 09:25:11 am »
I've been working solidly on Modes for the last few months, with the help of my friend Andy who has uploaded a 20 episode video series to help me out. It's been incredible so far. So much to get your head around, but so worth it. It has totally started to tie everything together for me, keys, notes, intervals/frets, chords, scales, arpeggios, transcribing, song writing, working out chords to fit a melody etc.

I've just finished learning all the Mode shapes, and am starting the "Putting it all together" this week. As an adjunct to Justin's stuff it has been great. You can find the vids here, starting with "Modes 1":

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV75VydqwbkKxMB4Gu1v_BQ/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=0

 

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