Author Topic: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins  (Read 11608 times)

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Offline DavidP

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 04:04:06 pm »
Thanks Richard

I think I will try and keep it simple for now, rather than getting into trying to play blues.  So I am assuming that Am and C on a loop should be fine? 

Also think Am, Dm & Em sequence might work?  When just playing the scale notes up and down and messing about a bit, I think I have heard phrases that sound a little St James Infirmary Blues like, which I play with those chords.

I have not officially reached the maj scale yet ... but did learn that years ago.  So could also work on that  as an option, extra fun.  Then would guess that a G, Am & C loop should work?

Your point as to which notes and when is well noted (terrible pun that should probably have been deleted).

I do have PMT but not a long way into yet.  Certainly not as far as intervals.

Thanks for the pointers.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:36:22 am by close2u »

Offline batwoman

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 10:23:34 pm »
Notice in the video that one of the students is literally just playing the C Major scale up and down slowly, the other is chording whilst Chet does nothing elaborate and he simply sticks to the notes of the C Major scale ... which notes and when is the key.

Close thanks for breaking this down so clearly. I'm at the slowly playing the C Major scale up and down and I won't move on from there till every note is sweet. Your input in so valuable  :)

get the Practical Music Theory for all sorts of intervallic goodness.

This sounds like a song about outer space. Noting it in my music book. Plagarism? Hey  8)

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 10:27:42 pm »
Note to self ... come back to this thread to discuss the C Major scale played around the C chord shape vs the Major scale shape forms of CAGED & 3 notes per string ...

Offline batwoman

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 10:40:45 pm »
Note to self ... come back to this thread to discuss the C Major scale played around the C chord shape vs the Major scale shape forms of CAGED & 3 notes per string ...

Oh Self, I look forward to that. Thankyou. I hope your PA has taken note  :)  This is mind expanding and I LOVE IT. Makes me very happy.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:56:23 pm by batwoman »

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 10:52:26 pm »
Self ...


Chet demonstrates where to find and play the notes of the C Major scale (no sharps or flats) starting with a G note on the 1st string at fret 3 dropping all the way down to the root note C at fret 3 of the A string.
Of course he could have continued and played descending notes B and A on the 5th string then G, F and E on the 6th string. That would have showed all C Major scale notes available on the open strings and the first three frets.
The way he shows he does not start on the root note but does end on it.
These notes all fit around an open C chord shape. Does that mean it is equivalent to the 'C' shape from the CAGED system of chord shapes and scale patterns?
Yes, yes, yes oh yes.

CAGED is an easy name to speak out loud but EDCAG is the order Justin and others teach. The five letters derive from the open chord shapes of those letters ... E chord, D chord, C chord, A chord, G chord.  So that means the C chord and the Major scale shape around it is Major scale pattern 3.
See the diagram on this this page.
The diagram has a line of tabbed notes with number 1 (notes normally played with the first finger) which you have to replace with open string notes (notes formed by the nut). And if you haven't seen it before look carefully to see the C chord shape sitting within that diagram.

Knowing the notes up to fret 3 is a good thing. And playing around with the notes from the C Major scale in this easy, accessible way is, imho, an enjoyable way of learning to play simple melodic passages over a chord progression in the key of C. The way Chet plays and uses it is charming.
I don't know the context of all he is teaching before and after this. But I would hazard a guess it involves a different learning approach to Justin's - maybe involving some note and tab reading, some melodies and some chords.


An underlying benefit of CAGED is learning moveable scale patterns around moveable chord shapes. Or moveable chord shapes within moveable scale patterns. There are five interlinking and overlapping patterns that spread up and down the entire fretboard, including octave repeats of some. But each pattern has its lowest position using all fretted notes ... beyond which if you move lower down the neck towards the nut you will need to incorporate open strings to play the full patterns. This also necessitates using different fingerings. Take the C shape chord / pattern 3 I have already been discussing. When you learn Major scale pattern 3 in, say the G Major scale sequence, you learn to play with finger positions matching those in the diagram linked above. If you play pattern 3 of the C Major scale then you can do so starting with your finger 1 at fret 12 and use the exact matching fingering already learned. But you can also play it at the open position. And this can be a bit of a mind melt at first because you play it differently and you get all in a muddle.
The point I'm making is that Chet's lesson is fine and usable and fun but should not be seen as a lead-in lesson to learning the Major scale with the CAGED system. Just because the 'open string' pattern is not moveable and slightly anomalous to the overall system. Have fun playing around with all that this video lesson reveals ... and there is a lot behind the apparent simplicity.

Chet plays three notes on the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th strings ... and could easily play three on the 6th string too if he hadn't stopped at the lowest root note. So, is he showing a 3 notes per string 3NPS scale pattern?
Short answer - no.
The name is as the name does. You play three notes on all strings in a system of moveable and interlocking patterns.
Chet's shape is a CAGED shape ... pattern 3 ... not a 3NPS shape.




More later.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 09:32:49 pm by close2u »

Offline batwoman

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2018, 12:36:28 am »
Self ...
More later.

Wow Self, you've outdone yourself here. I've copied all this into my music book. Rooly, rooly good stuff. Thankyou very much for taking the time to share this Close. Legend.

I intend looking for more of Chet's lessons, so will let share any that I find that seem relevant. I could spend all day watching YouTube videos. Need to get back to my guitar for a while and integrate what I'm learning.

And this can be a bit of a mind melt at first because you play it differently and you get all in a muddle.

Yep familiar with the mind melt and muddles as well as melt downs and hissy fits  ;D

Offline DarrellW

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2018, 07:35:19 am »
I’ve got to say that this thread has become a great reference for learning and it’s a great opportunity to learn important things to know that will definitely improve your understanding of how to put together melodies, it’s been something I’ve always struggled with but am beginning to realise what I had missed learning!
My singing sucks so I’m learning Guitar and Ukulele, it’s fun 🌟

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2018, 12:39:05 pm »
More ... part 1.

The chord progression that Chet uses for the 'scale tune' (starting at 1min 35secs)  is at a nice slow 4/4 tempo



||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||



Here it is with the count added.




    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4   
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||



To benefit from this I recommend you play and record a loop of this.

The 1st student is playing the chords using a simple finger picking pattern which you could follow.

Or you could play a 1, 2 or 4 strum per bar pattern.

Or a pick strum pick strum pattern to give you a bass note on counts 1 and 3.

You could play the Root note on counts 1 and 3 for all chords.

Or you could do pick strum pick strum but change the bass note that you pick thus:

Root then 4th string on the C and Am

Root then 3rd string on the Dm

Root then 4th string on the G7

Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:48:18 am by close2u »

Offline batwoman

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 10:55:50 pm »
More ... part 1.
Does that make sense?

Sure does make sense Close. You are an excellent teacher. I've gained and learned so much from this thread and all your input. Many, many thanks  :)

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2018, 12:48:50 am »
More ... part 2.

Chet is using the C Major scale over a chord progression so that chord progression must surely be in the key of C right?
Well, yes, of course.

Here is the C Major scale in a linear notation with a repeat so it spans two octaves.

R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C


The chords in the progression are all made from notes in the C Major scale:


C  = C, E, G
Dm = D, F, A
G7 = G, B, D, F
Am = A, C, E


If you do not already know about simple chord construction then look carefully at each group of notes within the chords, then find those same notes as laid out in the line of notes in the C Major scale.
There should be something you notice ... a pattern, a sequence, a common feature that they share.




Are you still struggling to see it?
If so, look at this ...





C  = C, E, G
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




Dm = D, F, A
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




G7 = G, B, D, F
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




Am = A, C, E
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C





Do you now see how the very make up and structure of those chords stem directly from notes of the C Major scale, notes that appear in the C Major scale at regular spacing / intervals?

Yes?
Fantastic.

These regular intervals taken from the scale are called 'stacked 3rds' because the chords are made up from a simple pattern thus:
(for each given start note) use the 1st note, skip the next note - the 2nd - then use the 3rd note. The 3rd note becomes the new 1st, skip the 2nd, use the 3rd. Stacked 3rds. All built on notes taken from the same scale.

Does this make sense?
If so you are beginning to connect the C Major scale with chords in the key of C. And you are beginning to see something fundamental about chord construction itself.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:53:32 am by close2u »

Offline batwoman

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2018, 12:58:02 am »
Close you are on fire! Perhaps an antidote to the artic chill, or cabin fever brought on by the cold? I now have four pages of gold. This will keep me busy for a long time. Biggest thanks and appreciation for sharing some of your knowledge and another good vibe. You are a gem  :)

Offline DavidP

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2018, 05:28:24 am »
Richard,

I can but echo Batwoman's sentiment.  Super generous of you to take the time to lay this out here. Sure you could have said "Get a copy of PMT, check out structure of major scale, construction of chords and come back with feedback and questions"

I learn best by playing back my understanding. So given the way this thread has evolved, I don't feel I'm hijacking now...

The chord progression could be described as I I II II V7 V7 I I VI VI II II V7 V7 I I ... yes?

If so I could play it in G using G Am Dm7 Em ... yes?

I could play the G maj scale with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5. I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it. And imaging the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

I'd do it this way, rather than in C, to learn the moveable major scale pattern and to exercise Dm7 chord (a tricky little sucker, for me, with the first finger mini barre on 1st fret).

How does that sound?

Once again, many many thanks.

Offline DarrellW

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2018, 08:17:48 am »
Good vibes Richard, nice and clearly explained - certainly are a good teacher!
My singing sucks so I’m learning Guitar and Ukulele, it’s fun 🌟

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2018, 08:39:23 am »
@ David ...
Quote
The chord progression could be described as I I II II V7 V7 I I VI VI II II V7 V7 I I ... yes?
Yes, but you wouldn't normally write the same chord twice in succession and you would use lower case for the minor chords - it would more normally be written: I ii V7 I vi ii V7 I

Quote
If so I could play it in G using G Am Dm7 Em ... yes?

You're mostly right with only a small correction to make.

Every scale is written using just seven letters, in order, with no letter repeated.
Look at the C Major and G Major scales mapped out below - with chords attached for the C Major scale. I will leave it to you to correct your error.

                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
C Major scale = C,  D,  E,  F,  G,  A,  B,   C
                C   Dm          G7  Am

                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
G Major scale = G,  A,  B,  C,  D,  E,  F#,  G
                G   Am         Dm7  Em


Quote
I could play the G maj scale with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5. I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it.

Yes.

Quote
And imaging the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

No.

Quote
I'd do it this way, rather than in C, to learn the moveable major scale pattern

That makes sense as a great exercise to begin to learn use and make music with the G Major scale and learning the 1st pattern of the CAGED system of Major scale patterns. The pattern you seek is the 1st one to learn but it is not a G shape. I'll leave that as an unanswered question just for now.
You've also preempted something I was planning on adding to this thread a little later on so can you bear with me for a short time for more information relating to G Major?

Quote
and to exercise Dm7 chord (a tricky little sucker, for me, with the first finger mini barre on 1st fret).
Hopefully you've corrected your Dm7 error above.
Not to worry - practicing this chord is a great idea so what about this.
Take the original chord progression in C that Chet uses and substitute the Dm for a Dm7. Whenever you have a minor chord, you can substitute a minor7 chord. You could substitute Am7 in that original chord progression too if you want to practice that chord - especially the full four-finger version with 4th finger on the 3rd fret top e string.

Offline close2u

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Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2018, 09:37:38 am »
More ... part 3.

David's post contained questions about chords and I want to add in a little more on the chord progression in C that Chet uses for a moment.

As described in the post above, the progression is:
I ii V7 I vi ii V7 I 


Or, if you split it equally you can view it as two successive progressions:

I  ii  V7  I          C  Dm  G7  C

vi ii  V7  I          Am Dm  G7  C


There are some advantages to viewing it as a progression in two halves. Both sections are identical apart from the starting chord. Both sections conclude with a G7 chord moving to a C chord (a V7 to a I movement).

Small aside - do you hear how this ending of G7 to C just sounds right, complete, at peace with itself? This specific movement from V7 chord to I chord is called a closed cadence or authentic cadence. I'm not going to spend time on that theory just now, I only mention it to encourage you to listen to how wonderful that resolution sounds, how the progression just seems to sonically pull you in to a happy place as it moves from G7 to C.


By now you should have that progression nicely in mind, in your ears and under your fingers. Hopefully you have recorded a loop to play over.

Let's move forward and anticipate the 'scale tune' by laying out the chord progression again, this time with the constituent notes of each chord written above.




    (C E G)              (D F A)
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


   (G B D F)             (C E G)
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    (A C E)              (D F A)
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


   (G B D F)             (C E G)
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||

The idea in setting the progression out this way is to connect the chords which should be very familiar with their constituent notes - which as described above all derive from the C Major scale. Do not get too hung up on the notes above each chord as separate notes, but view them as small groups that work well together.

Does that make sense?

In subsequent posts, it will be important to try to think of single notes rather than as groups making up chords. Single notes that sit within any of these chords when they appear in the progression and single notes that are being played as part of the 'scale tune' that Chet and the student plays in the video.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:58:07 am by close2u »

 

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