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Offline llbaker2

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Effects Both Question
« on: June 28, 2017, 09:22:01 pm »
I’m a bit confused by the last section of the “Intervals Worksheet” (page 15 of Justin’s “Practical Music Theory” ebook). When attempting to apply the “Effects Both” trick I have been doing a self-check by both flattening and sharpening a given calculation and then comparing the derived intervals of the original, the flattened and the sharpened equivalents. If I understand the concept correctly all three should have the same interval. The issue I seem to be having is when I try to apply this self-check when the original is a flattened note and going to a normal note such as Ab to E or Bb to B:

Ab to E (original) = Augmented 5th
   = A to E# (sharpened of original) = Augmented 5th
   = G to G#/Ab (flattened of original)

Bb to B = Augmented Unison
   = B to B# = Augmented Unison
   = A to A#/Bb

If I understand the concept correctly, when you lower a note one semi tone it’s called flattening the note and the “b” symbol is used. For example when you flatten the B note it’s known as a B flat (Bb) and not an A#.

When I attempt to preform my self-check as mentioned above by flattening both parts of the original
 (Bb to B) I get:

Bb flattened one semi tone is A
B flattened one semi tone is Bb

Problem is for example when I try calculate the interval for going from A to Bb using A key signature I keep coming up with the interval “minor 2ed". My logic is I’m flattening the B in the key of A by one semi tone to a Bb thus going from the major 2ed to a minor 2ed. If I calculate the original “Bb to B” or its sharpened equivalent “B to B# I get an interval of Augmented Unison.

If I calculate “A to A#” rather than “A to Bb” then I get an interval of Augmented Unison which matches intervals for original and sharpened equivalent. This seems wrong to me because when applying “Effects Both” and flatten the original “Bb to B” to “A to A#/Bb” I am flattening B by one semi tone and thus should use Bb not A#. What is the flaw in my logic? What am I doing wrong?

Offline Labora

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Re: Effects Both Question
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 09:42:00 am »
If you flatten B flat, you get B flat flat, not A. Although B flat flat is the same note  as A, it helps when thinking about a particular key to keep one note of each letter.

So in the key of A, the second interval will always be a B of some kind. Could be a regular B. Could be a B# (which would really be a C but we wouldn't call it that) or it could be a Bb.

Similarly in the key of Ab, the second interval will still be a B of some kind. If it's a regular second, it would be Bb. If it's a sharp second it would be B. If it's a flat second it would be Bbb.

Does that help at all or have I misunderstood your questions? 

Offline TB-AV

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Re: Effects Both Question
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 04:32:11 am »
I think you are conflating two concepts.

Ab to E (original) = Augmented 5th
   = A to E# (sharpened of original) = Augmented 5th
   = G to G#/Ab (flattened of original)
 = G to G# = Aug 5th
= Fb to F = Aug 5th

All this is doing is choosing a new Key. IOW,,, people are ok with A to A# but when they see a flat Key like say Eb it throws them... so the trick is to start from E.. .say E to F# then you just back everything up a fret Eb to F ... it effected both notes.

Also you either go up - sharp or you go down - flat. Never both.

B to Bb is a minor 2nd... but you are going down.

A to Bb implies that you are not working off of A. For instance let's say a chord progression was A to C7. Well if you look at the notes of the A chord it's A C# E, then you look at the C7 chord and it's C E G Bb.... you would not call it an A# because it's the flat 7 of C. The 7 is B so the flat 7 has to be Bb.

However if you go back to A and start counting you count up A A# B. Do you see how we counted up here. But for the C7 chord we needed to count down?

Now let's look at another chord... suppose instead of a C7 let's say it didn't sound good and you know the A chord has a C# in it. So you play a C#6 instead. Well the 6th note of that chord is A#. So all you did was change from a C chord to a C# chord, but the first one required a lowered 7th note ( Bb ) and the second chord C#6 required you to simply count up from C# to get all the notes... so no flats... you counted up not down.

Also in this case of the C#6... that 6th note the A#... if you related it back to the Key of A, it would be that same augmented unison. A to A#. In the C# chord it's a 6th. But that same note is Bb in the C7 chord because it's a -lowered- 7th.

A A# B C etc.... That's A counting up

C D E F G A B ... that's C counting up BUT... if you want to make a C7 chord you have to drop back a fret for the 7th note B... flat it to Bb.

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# = notes in C# and C#6 is spelled C# E# G# A#

Soo.... at any given time you may want/need to think about raising or lowering notes within a CHORD.... but for your SCALES... you pretty much just go one way. You count up from the bottom. One letter note per scale, don't mix flats and sharps.

It's when you get into spelling chords that you start lowering and raising at the same time.

Like say Em7#9... Well Em says there is a b3... the 7 means b7 and the #9 obviously means #9. With respect to chords what you are doing is basically taking the Major Scale that the Chord Names and using sharp or flat notes to make a Chord.

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B -- -that's C Major. Now if I said make a chord with a b3, b7 and a #9 you would spell it... C Eb Bb D# ... and that's ok to do because again, you have 7 notes and many of them can be altered up or down. You can make them sharp or flat.

HOWEVER... what you are doing with a single SCALE... not trying to develop or spell chords but simply to identify notes of a SINGLE SCALE... you go one way and reference off the lowest note.

Don't do the mix and match with flats and sharps. If you are working sharps, you could get to a note that is F## or in another scale maybe Bbb... but never have F# and Bb in same scale.

So again , your exercise. When he says apply to both...
A to A#
Bb to B

That is NOT lowering or flatting A to Bb... that is simply a mental shift for the exercise.

A to A#
Fb to F
Gb to G

Those are just shifts or transpositions. The A to Fb to Gb is not connected musically in any way, it's just an exercise.

Scales are carved in stone.

Chords go both ways

You will work with both at the same time. So you need to be clear that scales are one way, one thing. Right now you are working with the carved in stone stuff.

You get 7 main notes. C D E F G A B - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. If somebody says make the 6th a double flat, you count out to 6 and add two flats. Abb. If someone says make a sharp 2... same thing. D#. Flat 3... Eb.... sharp 4 F#. double sharp 5 would be G##. That is the only name any of those could be in the key of C Major.

Now if someone said make a CHORD from C Major with x notes.... then you get other options. right now though, you are in the carved in stone part with those main 7 notes from whichever scale you are working with. Actually you are working with the Chromatic Scale C C# D D# E F F# etc... but it's the same thing. D to C# in that Scale is a minor 2nd becasue you are going down... and that's used in making chords, but C# is the Aug Unison of C. Aug Unison is the NAME. D to C# minor 2nd is a distance.... as in... how much do I need to change the D note in my chord to make it sound like I need it to? I need to lower it a minor 2nd!

The problem you are having is that you are thinking like you would be playing and making chords.

The exercise is for communication theory. It's a one way thing that everyone on earth could agree on. It's a set of specifics. You are skipping ahead so to speak and applying a different aspect of scale theory.

You are in the CHORD realm but need to be in the more precise communication form of the Scale.

Think one directionally from the bottom up for this. It may seem counter intuitive but forget how -far- something is and simply think - what is it's precise name as counted from the Root upward.

If I calculate “A to A#” rather than “A to Bb” then I get an interval of Augmented Unison which matches intervals for original and sharpened equivalent. This seems wrong to me because when applying “Effects Both” and flatten the original “Bb to B” to “A to A#/Bb” I am flattening B by one semi tone and thus should use Bb not A#. What is the flaw in my logic? What am I doing wrong?

You are actually doing it right. A to Bb.... but first before you get too wrapped up in having "lowered" the B... think of it as having "transposed" it. Now there is no calculation involved with the result. IOW... play an A chord... now play a G chord. Ok, we didn't LOWER the A. We simply transposed from A to G... now we will play a song in G. Game over. Ok, that's the first step... now back to A to Bb.... If you want your answer to be correct for the Key of A it will have to have a note that belongs to the Scale of A. A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A..... So A to Bb becomes A to A#

I know it all sounds like some insane trick but once it clicks that no matter what you have a Scale of specific notes that never change... that pretty much takes care of all the names. then you just need to be mindful of what you are doing. Are you talking about a Key Scale or are you building Chords.

EX. We are playing guitars. I say the Key is A and let's play A and F#... well if you play exactly what I said and play F# Major... I might say... no, lower the 3rd. So you need to understand I mean the 3rd of F# to make it F#m which has the A note and not the A# note you were playing. When I said lower the 3rd, I didn't mean the 3rd of Key of A which would have been C# lowered to C.. Then you would have been playing F# with a b5. F# A# C ... now you have two wrong notes for the Key of A.

So when I initially said play A and F# you would know by default A Major and F#m because those are the chords in the Key of A. It's the same thing with this other stuff. You need to stick to the exact context of the exercise. No Bb in Key of A so you never calculate A to Bb in that context.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 04:56:15 am by TB-AV »

Offline DavidP

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Re: Effects Both Question
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 06:53:50 am »
Thanks for all that, TB-AV, and chuffed I followed it....most of it  :)


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