Author Topic: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out  (Read 1163 times)

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Offline tyler2780

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Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« on: April 08, 2017, 05:32:08 pm »
On my electric guitar the nut and washer will come out very frequently just from unplugging and plugging it in once or twice. Anyone know anyway to fix this?

Offline Scooter Trash

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 07:18:10 pm »
Starlock washer and 242 blue Loctite.
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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 05:10:15 pm »
If you insist on Loctite at least just use the Purple 222

Take the two screws out.

The jack may have.. nothing, a nut, a smooth washer, a star washer on the inside.

Get a star washer as mentioned and that will dig into the wood.

So your inside will be Jack/Nut/Star or Jack/Star or Jack/Flat/Star... The reason a nut on the inside is to allow you to have more or less threads on the outside. It's used as a length adjustment.

So maybe you have Jack/Nut/Flat/Star/3/4"threads ... That 3/4" threads goes to the outside. If you needed more or less you can adjust the nut back and forth. Most people don;t get that nut tight. So if you use Loctite, that's a good place for it. If there is no nut, and the threads are not too long, then everything just bottoms out on jack and only the outside nut can come loose.

On the outside... be sure the nut actually fits. Some people will lose one and replace with wrong size and some will actually fit but not correctly. So if the nut feels wobbly on the outside it's not the right one.

Next get a socket wrench... small like 1/4" drive and the proper fit socket. Tighten.. that should hold for a long long time if done correctly. If you really feel you need or want Loctite, just use the Purple  so it will come apart with hand tools like it's supposed to. The Blue --can-- but may not always get stuck very effectively and per the manufactures directions requires heat to release. Also just  small drop. If you see the fluid after the install that's more than you needed.

Screw the jack back on.

The problem is the jack has probably never been installed correctly.

The other thing you can add but is kind of overkill. a split washer on outside as well. So it's Flat washer/Split washer/Nut.... or if you can find one a wave washer will add some tension.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=wave+washer&pc=MOZI&form=MOZTSB

Put that in place of a split washer... Flat/Wave/Nut


Final from inside to outside

Jack/Nut(Purple LT)/Flat/Star/Bracket/Flat/Nut
OR
Jack/Flat/Star/Bracket/Flat/Nut

whatever you do... or however you decide to do it, Loctite or not, washer variety, none of that matters UNLESS you get a STRONG MECHANICAL lock down. The hardest part for most people is actually figuring out a way to hold the Jack in place without breaking it. That's why you see so many loose jacks. They are never assembled MECHANICALLY STRONG with proper fitting hand tools in the first place.

So go buy yourself a small socket wrench. Get a couple deep well sockets that fits Asia and USA nuts that are used on guitars and pedals. Might run you $30 for everything you need and will last multiple lifetimes.

I like this style wrench or one similar and I'll tell you why. The handle swivels to let you get to tight places in FX pedals where if you just need a degree or two of angle it the socket still grabs.

But the main reason is. That swivel handle keeps you in check from over tightening but you still can crank down on it plenty hard to keep things from coming loose. IOW, you won't just grab the wrench and wring something off. Also it's small size let's you pull pretty hard without really building up excessive pressure.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-1-4-in-Drive-Ratchet/3381162

« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 05:29:52 pm by TB-AV »
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Offline joueur de guitare

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 06:22:58 pm »


Get a star washer as mentioned and that will dig into the wood.



That's a Strat, there's no wood for it to dig into  ;)

This is what's on the other side. Another nut. So the advice is good, get a couple of star washers, put them under each nut and tighten them again. Shouldn't need Loctite. :)




Some jacks don't have a second nut, so just replace the washers. The jack in this pic already has one.



Good advice about tools. Makes the job so much easier.
Guitars. Fender Highway 1 Tele: Fender Shortboard LE Mustang: Ibanez AS73 semi-hollow: Ibanez SR370 bass: Squier Affinity Strat: Squier Jagmaster.

Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 07:28:29 pm »
That's a Strat, there's no wood for it to dig into  ;)

Ha!, yeah, I was looking at the picture and thinking about something else. Same thing in the end though. the star washers will dig into something.

This is what's on the other side. Another nut.

Maybe..... I wouldn't want to bet on what may be on the other side.

If it were me, and I was worried about my mechanical bond, I would stack washers on the inside with a star being last until I got the exact amount of threads sticking through the other side. That way, no matter what, there is no nut on the inside to ever come loose. They can't build them that way practically, but they can be repaired that way so you never have to mess with them again.



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Offline Scooter Trash

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2017, 07:42:51 pm »
FWIW: not all starlock washers are created equal.  If you get the cheep Chinese soft steel ones, they just flatten out when you tighten the nuts and work more like a flat washer instead of "biting." Try to find the spring steel ones. They both bite, and maintain tension on the nut..

I don't know why people have an issue with loctite.. I've never had a problem with it.   ???
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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2017, 08:28:28 pm »
I don't know why people have an issue with loctite.. I've never had a problem with it.   ???

Well I can tell you I had to drill out a piece that I put together with a small amount of 242 per manufactures spec with a torque wrench ( Wheeler ). 25 in/lbs.

Two metal fittings with a total of 4 screws. I decided to change something. Broke a hex wrench off which was my mistake. It was supposed to be a T bit. Anyway.. broke three wrenches. The three screws that did come out were very stubborn but did pull around.

The one had to be drilled which also ruined the part.

There is no way you could secure a guitar jack in the manner I had to secure this thing. So 242 can and has been a problem with a lot of people, especially in gun smithing where you have small screw sizes.

Granted the guitar jack nut is pretty good size but the securing it to put the stress on it should the 242 get stuck is not easy. Of course you can cut and toss it. But they make 222 for such applications. so if you like Loctite, why not use the product they designed for such applications.

242 will just ruin your day when it gets stuck and there is no need for it on a guitar that's been properly assembled.  It's great for a lot of other things but not a guitar imo.

So that's my reason. It's not an 'issue with loctite" per se. It's horses for courses.

In the guitar world people are in a compromised position regarding tools, etc. when they need to service something. Same for control knobs. You get one stuck and next thing you know someone has scratched the guitar body just trying to remove a simple nut.

Honestly a good split washer would be fine if they were assembled correctly as the split washer tries to cut into the two surfaces as the retainer is removed. So any vibration loosening the nut will cause it to cut into the nut and the back side of the mount plate. But... that will cratch teh chrome/Gold/Black or whatever off your jack bracket... so not a great idea.

So Nut/Split/Bracket/Split/Nut if tightened properly would basically try to cut into the bracket and both nuts as if it were vibrated into loosening. But they can be used to add some tension. Like Flat/Split/Nut... In that configuration the Split will only try to cut the Nut and Flat.. but... the Flat will just spin... so all you really get from it is tension.  On a Bracket/Split/Nut configuration the Split will dig into the bracket and nut as it is loosened. A Split washer with Anti-Clockwise rotating nut tries to cut into the mating faces as it un-springs... like a one way ratchet or reptiles teeth





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Offline Scooter Trash

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 08:48:35 pm »
242 blue is designed to allow disassembly. If you had that much trouble with it there must have been red loctite on the fasteners, not blue.. Or the fasteners were very soft metal. BTW, you can heat the fasteners with a soldering iron if you have any issues with the blue.  I've been using it since the 1980s when I was pulling wrenches for a living. Nearly every single rack screw that I've used had blue loctite on it. I'll just leave it there because I know you think loctite is the devil.

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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 11:25:17 pm »
Wow... seriously? LOL, the part about soft fasteners is a hoot.

RED

BLUE

Yeah, they do look a lot alike. ,,, and who doesn't want to break out the soldering gear just to remove nuts off a guitar.













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Offline Dan Graves

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 05:22:48 pm »
Allright, i'm ending this damn discussion once and for all, because the chemist in me demands it; http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_BLUE_tds.pdf
Please note the part where the specs mention that "For disassembly, shear with standard hand tools and remove with methylene chloride".
The moment they suggest DiChloroMethane, or DCM, to remove a bonding agent, you've got some hardcore bonding going on.

Do please also note similar specs on the red loctite : http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf
Technically speaking those mean it's easier to break the bond on the red, since just soaking in DCM will do it, with scrubbing to remove leftover bits.

Now, will you two please stop arguing about the Loctite, or am i going to have to take a detour from my trip to Texas next week to smack some sense into both of you ?  :P

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, back on topic : Tyler, if you have a sister/mom/girlfriend nearby, ask them if they have some clear nailpolish, if they do, borrow it, tighten the nuts, and apply a drop of the clear nailpolish into the threads on each side to keep it from coming apart for a while.
It's cheap, it works, and all it takes to break the seal if you need to is minor tension with a wrench.
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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2017, 12:59:46 pm »

Technically speaking those mean it's easier to break the bond on the red, since just soaking in DCM will do it, with scrubbing to remove leftover bits.


Nope!   you are reading that incorrectly. That information is for "clean up". That for cleaning the stuff that is open to sight.

Read the part under "description" again.
Loctite®  Threadlocker  Red  271™  is  designed  for  the  permanent  locking  and  sealing  of  threaded
fasteners.  The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces.
It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration.  It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F (260°C)

So the chemical soaking is for the stuff you need to clean up... not to break a proper bonded fastener.

I agree with the clear nail polish though. If you have something on a guitar that nail polish won't hold from vibration then it's time to learn how to assemble them correctly and/or you need some better parts.
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Offline Dan Graves

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 07:31:21 pm »
Nope!   you are reading that incorrectly. That information is for "clean up". That for cleaning the stuff that is open to sight.

Read the part under "description" again.
Loctite®  Threadlocker  Red  271™  is  designed  for  the  permanent  locking  and  sealing  of  threaded
fasteners.  The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces.
It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration.  It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F (260°C)

So the chemical soaking is for the stuff you need to clean up... not to break a proper bonded fastener.

TB, the solvent they're recommending (dichloromethane (DCM), also know methylene chloride) can be used to remove Epoxy and other resin-based goo...
I'm pretty sure it will do the job.
Granted, that's probably not what Henkel meant, but i'd dare say that it's feasible to remove both types of Loctite with it.
It's still not a good idea to do so, because DCM is really nasty stuff, and fairly carcinogenic, but i'm fairly confident it can be done.

I agree with the clear nail polish though. If you have something on a guitar that nail polish won't hold from vibration then it's time to learn how to assemble them correctly and/or you need some better parts.

Those self locking nuts with the rubber rings in them are also a handy trick, or as mentioned before, the right kind of washer rings.
But i agree, if you need to resort to those measures, you have bigger problems, like being sued for making your bandmates and audience deaf over the course of a show...
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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 09:55:33 pm »
TB, the solvent they're recommending (dichloromethane (DCM), also know methylene chloride) can be used to remove Epoxy and other resin-based goo...
I'm pretty sure it will do the job.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that you are reading the "clean up" procedure. IOW, exposed loctite. You are not going to get Red loctite apart from say a truck with DCM.

You clean up , remove surface debris with the DCM and a wire brush. But that's not going to soak a fixture apart.

It's like saying clean up latex paint with warm water. Sure, While it wet. But once it's cured you need some sort of stripper or sandpaper.

Same with loctite. You can remove exposed material with DCM... but says bolts on a truck part... you will need high heat and likely a breaker bar / impact wrench.

 
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Offline Scooter Trash

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 08:44:18 pm »
Last time this topic came up, I posted a video of my removing a nut that was fastened using blue loctite. It didn't even deflect the needle on an inch-pound torque wrench. And I likely could ahve easily removed the nut using just a socket. There's not a lot of surface area on a jack nut.. and blue LocTite is intended to be used on parts that require disassembly. - besides.. if it solves the problem of the nut coming loose, there's not much chance of having to ever touch the nut again. The jacks last for years.. If you're afraid of LocTite, don't use it. I've used it for over 3 decades on both automotive and electronics fasteners without any issues.
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Offline Dan Graves

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Re: Nut and Washer Keeps Coming Out
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 12:18:22 am »
What I'm trying to get across to you is that you are reading the "clean up" procedure. IOW, exposed loctite

I am aware of that, but i also know that if a compound can be used to remove residual amounts of a substance, it can also be used to undo it in the long run.
Might take a week, but it can usually be done (just to be extra clear, i'm not saying that this is a feasible, fast and/or workable solution for the average person; it isn't).

It's like saying clean up latex paint with warm water. Sure, While it wet. But once it's cured you need some sort of stripper or sandpaper.

If by stripper you mean good old Isopropyl Alcohol, then i must agree, it'll turn latex paint and/or plain old cured liquid latex into a runny goo.
If you're talking professional cleaning products; don't believe the advertisements.

You are not going to get Red loctite apart from say a truck with DCM.

I am going to see if i can find some red loctite here so i can actually test that theory.
(thus far all i've found is blue  ??? )
Hell, if i manage to find some, i'll try some other solvents just because i can.
(and if you guys fail to hear from me i'll have blown myself up by using Ether or some other crazy solvent  :-[ )

Last time this topic came up, I posted a video of my removing a nut that was fastened using blue loctite. It didn't even deflect the needle on an inch-pound torque wrench. And I likely could ahve easily removed the nut using just a socket. There's not a lot of surface area on a jack nut.. and blue LocTite is intended to be used on parts that require disassembly. - besides.. if it solves the problem of the nut coming loose, there's not much chance of having to ever touch the nut again. The jacks last for years.. If you're afraid of LocTite, don't use it. I've used it for over 3 decades on both automotive and electronics fasteners without any issues.


I remember the last time you guys argued about this, and i also remember both you and TB are as stubborn as i am...
And i know that i've also had issues with blue Loctite removal in the past, but as i think i mentioned before, i'm not sure the blue here is the exact same compound as over in the U.S., as it's description reads more like a mix between blue and red, so i'm not going to take sides on that one without extensively testing it myself.
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