Author Topic: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns  (Read 2413 times)

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Offline KasperFauerby

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2016, 08:36:15 am »
Once again good advice from TB-AV!

It's funny you should mention the dom7 chord. As I mentioned in another thread I recently started taking the occasional guitar lesson, and my teacher (who also is the one who passed on the pentatonic exercise to me) seems to be quite aligned with your ideas ;)

I am aware of (and fully agree with) the importance of seeing the chord tones - and as it happens I'm actually doing another exercise for that!

That one is a real mind-bender as well: the basic idea is seeing the dom7 chord, the arpeggio (1,3,5,b7) and the scale around it (so this would be Mixolydian rather than the major scale). The actual exercise is then to play 4 notes up the arpeggio, then 4 notes from there down the scale, 4 notes from there up the arpeggio ... and so on. That gets confusing real fast - but really helps in burning in both the chord tones and the surrounding scale notes.

That exercise is best tackled one position (however you want to see it - CAGED chord shape, scale pattern or whatever) at a time!

All that being said - I think there is a time for thinking, and there is a time for just playing!
For me personally I have to keep up my chops as well as learning all the visualization stuff. For that reason I still find the pentatonic scale pattern exercise extremely useful!

I should mention that while I do think of them as originating from a certain root note, I'm instantly seeing the whole pattern when switching key. So I'm not circling around the 1, or only transitioning key on the root.

Practicing the pentatonic patterns like I suggested, with a modulating chord sequence, is primarily a way to practice all of them equally much and learn to really see all the patterns. In reality I'm mostly using that knowledge to be able to link up the patterns with more confidence when soloing - which is mostly within a single key anyways. When I'm really going at it within a rock solo I'm usually leaving my thinking behind and going by ear (and muscle memory).

A fun little tip/idea is that many pentatonic licks actually works if you play the geometrically same pattern within the different scale positions. Even though the actually notes involved doesn't have the same function (scale step) in each position...

Never heard of flash cards specifically - but they sound interesting. Will check it out!


Offline TB-AV

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2016, 04:27:46 pm »
Right there is definitely practice time and just play time.

Quote
A fun little tip/idea is that many pentatonic licks actually works if you play the geometrically same pattern within the different scale positions. Even though the actually notes involved doesn't have the same function (scale step) in each position...

Right, it's a tough call what each individual needs to do / understand.

For instance a beginner wants to sound like EC on day one. So they do the Root note pattern 1. Then someone says hey, drop that back 3 frets and you are playing Major.

The problem is they won't know the scale steps and won't be able to sequence 3535351 at will. They will be able to 'play dots' and hopefully they can, by ear, land some good sounds.

At some point though everyone has to press forward and start seeing the all of the scale steps.

That 1 3 5 b7 exercise is good. The other notes just naturally are there and don't need much thinking. I mean it's kinda hard to not know where the 6 is if you know where the 5 and b7 are. Same for the 2(9).

I just use the Major as all the patterns line up to it. The Mixo is fine though.

Quote
The actual exercise is then to play 4 notes up the arpeggio, then 4 notes from there down the scale, 4 notes from there up the arpeggio ... and so on. That gets confusing real fast - but really helps in burning in both the chord tones and the surrounding scale notes.

So you mean you would play 1 3 5 b7 | 6 5 4 3 | 5 b7 1 3 | 2 1 b7 6 | etc....?  Yeah, that looks like a good exercise.

These would be 4 flash cards. You flash it up for a couple seconds and absorb the image or whatever it may be. These to teach kids the alphabet by association.

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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2016, 07:04:32 pm »
Sounds like a really useful exercise Kasper, one I'll bear in mind for the future when expanding my pent shapes. TB makes some good observations to my limited experience but this thread will be bookmarked for later.

I'm working through the Master The Major Scale at the moment but there's a huge difference between my abilities of playing Pattern 1 (E) and Pattern 2 (D). Attempts to just join these 2 up have been a challenge (well more disaster) but makes me appreciate you suggesting this exercise.

Many thanks for sharing.

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Offline TB-AV

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2016, 11:15:00 pm »
I'm working through the Master The Major Scale at the moment but there's a huge difference between my abilities of playing Pattern 1 (E) and Pattern 2 (D). Attempts to just join these 2 up have been a challenge (well more disaster) but makes me appreciate you suggesting this exercise.

The next time you are just knocking around. Take that scale exercise above, but at any point when you reach say strings d g or b.... instead of continuing with the exercise just go up the string to a 1 3 or 5.

IOW... let's say you are on the g string near the 3rd fret and playing the 3.. from there just go up that string 4 5 6 7 1.... and you can keep going if you like but let's just stop on 1... Now ask yourself What SHAPE is this and why can't I play a pattern here.

I think you will suddenly see where your stumbling blocks are and probably find a quick way to fix them.

So in that example you were playing G Major near 3rd fret but then climbed up the next to the Root 1... well you know that is G... so now do you want to riff around in G Maj, G minor Pent, G whatever... and why can't you do it?

I can pretty well assure you it's because you don't have a firm view of 1 3 5 of Major chords as a single view... not a linear scale... but all six strings at once.

Like this.... Obviously that is a C SHAPE.

Now you can see there is no 1 on the g string so in the example above you would know you're not in a C Shape. The A Shape has the 1 on the G string.

Beyond that though, and back to that scale exercise. Lets say you ran up the neck and ended on a 3 on a certain string. Well before long, of seeing the whole chord as a 1 3 5 .... even if you land on a 3 you will still know which SHAPE you are in and could then play "pattern lead" from there. Then go back to playing chords, or whatever. The point being all those numbers 1 3 5 will be your location devices and eventually you could be on a 6 and easily know what SHAPE you are in. Once you know what SHAPE you are in you can then determine why you can't readily play a certain lick or pattern. At that point you can lay the pattern out in front of you and practice it, but now it will have more meaning. You will see the scale degrees within it.

You see this chart.... take a look at the 5 on the D string. Only one there. So if you playing around and you -know- you have landed on a 5... you have to know that you are either going to solo out of the A SHAPE or G SHAPE. Top of A or bottom of G depending on where your hand is.

It's the same thing all over the neck. If you know what scale tone you are on, you should be able to figure out which of the 5 chords you are in. Conversely!!!...  think of this.... put your finger on any string fret. Let's just say g string 8th fret. Now.... name that note a 3. What SHAPE has a 3 on the g string? ... Good 'ole Pattern 1 E SHAPE. So you can start wailing in that shape and should see rather quickly you are playing a B Chord.

So play with that stuff going backwards and forwards. In about 30 days you will see a lot more stuff connecting up and feel almost like you are not even trying. IOW, it will stop being all these countless patterns that need to somehow be connected. It gets connected by the chords and the more easily you can see the whole chord the easier you will be able to move around.



BTW... this is what I was meaning by a Flash Card. You make yourself a deck of these based on the 5 Major Shapes  and just look at them... I would put the 6th string note in as well, even though in that chord it's not played except in a C/G chord.



That is what you want to see for every chord you play. As time goes on if you play a minor you will naturally know you are playing the b3 or if it's Dom7 you will know you are playing the b7.

But rather than move through CAGED by Roots. Try to learn to actually use CAGED anywhere by seeing the framework of the chord which is always based off 1 3 5.

Even later if you play a chord with a b9, Maj7, b5, #4, whatever... it will make waaaaay more sense to you. Let's say you see  progression that has #4s in it. You learn the chord grip, learn to play passage but then you say wait how do I solo over it... Well now you can pull out your Lydian Pattern that fits the version of the Chord you just learned. So you sit there and learn that pattern... no big deal.... But do you see how the chord came first and the Pattern last and no one had go through the ordeal of wondering how will I learn and 'connect' a bunch of modal patterns.  Now if Lydian became your absolute favorite mode, maybe you learn it all over the neck and put many hours into the Lydian Pattern but most likely you will use it in a specific spot for a specific song... so learn that. It will still all connect into all the other stuff by default.





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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2016, 07:19:47 pm »
 TB - Wow thanks for that, it was a real eye opener but I know I'm going to have to read it a few more times again for it to sink in or more importantly apply it on the fretboard!

I thought I was comfortable with interval positions, especially 1 3 5 but it would seem I've been brainwashed into only thinking of them across 2 strings. Seeing them as your diagram across the 6 strings I can see where the 'patterns' overlap. In fact I'm sure I could find the other 3 major scale patterns I've yet to work on, intuitively using a similar approach to your exercise - just go up to the root in a linear fashion on any string and branch out from there with my understanding of the interval relationships. Now I know my ears will tell me if I stray off course but does this mean I didn't need to buy the MTMS DVD?  ;)

Certainly some good exercises to use and cement the understanding of each chord within its scale and the scale relationships up and down the neck.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline stitch101

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2016, 08:46:11 pm »
Quote
I've been brainwashed into only thinking of them across 2 strings.

Toby your intervals work on every string up and down the neck.

It's just one big long line that repeats over and over. Adjusting for the B string.

On the chart look at the 2 E strings they start with the 1(R) and go up to the 4th but the
guitar neck doesn't end there if your draw in two more frets it would go to the 5th and
so on.
If you take the E string lay it over the A string so the intervals line up you see the same
pattern on all the strings.

Now take TBAVs Chart of the chord shapes and lay it over the yellow boxes you see how they
line up on the neck and where the CAGED shaped lay on the neck in the key of C.
If you line up the root with the D note on the A string you'll get the some result but in the key of D.



Offline TB-AV

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2016, 01:50:16 am »
Yes, and don;t confuse an INTERVAL with a SCALE STEP.


When you 1 3 5 7 or whatever. Those are SCALE STEPS.

1 to 3 is a 3rd and so in that case the 3 and 3rd are the same. 1 b2 2 b3 3  That's two Whole Steps or a Major 3rd.

But if played for instance the notes 3 and b7.  3 4 b5 5 b6 6 b7 that's Three Whole Steps or a Tri-Tone. You would not call it a b7 INTERVAL nor a 3rd INTERVAL. You would call it a Tri-Tone based off the SCALE STEPS distance from 3 to b7.

This is also another good example of seeing your chords as 1 3 5 or 1 3 5 7.. .Because that Tri-Tone of 3 and b7 is the "sound" of a Dom7 chord. So if you wanted to play fills with another guitar. That's all you need to hit, so being able to "see" 1 3 5 well you know the 3 and the b7 will always be two frets below the 1 OR a minor 3rd ( 4 fingers / frets ) above the 5. So if you are keyed in on the 1 3 5 already finding just the 3 b7 is pretty easy and you can play tasty little fills and licks along with other instruments without grabbing full barre chords.

So this is also important... lets say you are playing scale step 4 from a C chord. Now the progression is going to go the G chord. So you can play 4 b5 5 and you know that 5 has to be a G note and you are now on the G chord so right now that note becomes a 1 and all the scale steps are re-ordered and you are in a new SHAPE.. which brings us right back to Stacking the SHAPES which is what this thread was about to begin with..... and maybe right at that instant you want to play your Pentatonic pattern, so now in this exact example you would want your pattern that has the 1 right there on the string/fret you are playing.

This will also help with your note name memory.

You know G is the 5 of C. As you play lead or arpeggio, Obviously you will know your 1 is the C note but when you play up to the 5 and then change it in your mind to a 1 for the G chord, you will start to teach yourself note names just by accident almost....

For instance pick a Key ... lets say B ... now lets say you have figure what the 5 is... F#... You will start to learn your 1 3 5 notes again by default... but right now without thinking..... What's the 6 of B... It has to G# because you know the 6 is two frets up from 5.. You will simply start to make all these associations. You won't even be able to prevent it from happening.

There is simply going to be a lot of "oh, the thing I need is only one or two frets away" .. which again relates to the original context of thread. Everything is right there but you need to switch the flash card in your mind each time the chord changes.

I'm not suggesting this is fall off a log easy. It takes some time but if you slow down and don't expect immediate results it will begin to compound on itself. It's not a replacement for anything either. It's just another exercise.
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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: Exercise for learning all 5 minor pentatonic patterns
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 06:35:50 pm »
Stitch/TB

Thanks for the additional info, very useful alongside Kaspers OP exercise.

When I said I was thinking of the 1  3 5 across only 2 strings, I was meaning more of the 3 and 5 being on the string under the root and not downwards across the strings as TB showed. Not sure if my head was up my wottsit or silo thinking from continuing to work on the G Major scale but on TBs 'neck' diagram I had a complete blind spot for the CAGED chord shape - guess I should have read the accompanying notes. Seeing those yellow boxes again, was like Stitch had turned the dimmer switch to full after TB had turned the light on. Hey maybe just a senior moment, as going back to it this am the chord shapes just screamed at me.  8)
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