Author Topic: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas  (Read 2756 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tobyjenner

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3261
  • Good Vibes 115
  • You're never too old to Rock'n'Roll
Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« on: December 22, 2015, 04:57:32 pm »
OK so that could be a line from a death row ballad, so here's the question.

I'm expecting a dynamic mic for Xmas - doh like I bought it - and the plan was to seriously start working on the singing playing gig especially once I've finished the IM next year.

So here's the problem, if it is one. The plan is to use the dynamic for vocals and a condenser for acoustic, both run through my Behringer AI Q802USB. The AI provides Phantom +48V to the condenser mic which I can plug into Input 1 but am I safe using the dynamic mic via Input 2 with the Phantom power switched on?

There's nothing in the manual to suggest not to and it only mentions having the Phantom power off when plugging in the AI to the mains. So are there any risks using a dynamic along side the condenser ?

Side bar question - Dynamic for vocals, Condenser for guitar ? Is this the way to go ?

Thanks in anticipation.

Toby
 8)
Arrived here Mar 2013 Since completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM and MTMS Now on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
My Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/tobyjenner/
Roadcase : https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg339454#msg33945

Offline Rossco01

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1877
  • Good Vibes 68
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2015, 05:04:28 pm »
Toby, not sure about the phantom power question but I thought you'd use the microphones the other way around with dynamic for guitar and Condenser for vocal. I guess it depends on whether you're using mic to pick up from an amp or talking acoustic.
BC 11/13-11/14, IM Stage - Complete?
Epiphone Masterbilt DR500MCE, Yamaha Pacifica 112V, Fender Mustang 1v2, Zoom G5, Trio Plus, Zoom MS50G
Follow me on >> https://soundcloud.com/rossco01
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHlzgAndj0AFFSNE1iGnbQQ

Offline tobyjenner

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3261
  • Good Vibes 115
  • You're never too old to Rock'n'Roll
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 06:35:32 pm »
Rossco

Hoping to go the acoustic route, hence the 2 mics. If I was using electric I'd use like I do now, either direct into the AI or via Amp (with effects loop) into the AI and I'd use another Input channel on the AI for the mic.
All this is new to me so just feeling my way.

Cheers

Toby
 8)
Arrived here Mar 2013 Since completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM and MTMS Now on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
My Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/tobyjenner/
Roadcase : https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg339454#msg33945

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3035
  • Good Vibes 80
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 06:41:46 pm »
It won't hurt to leave the phantom power on when using the dynamic mic. Don't plug and unplug ribbon mics with phantom power turned on though.

You may have better luck recording the tracks separately and just turn the phantom power on when you use the condenser. That way there's less bleed and it's easier to control the vocal and guitar separately.

Use whatever mic sounds best. Depending on the mic, I'd likely use the condenser for the vocal and the acoustic and track them separately, and use the dynamic mic for mic'ing electric guitar amp.
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline Borodog

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 2667
  • Good Vibes 92
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 06:42:58 pm »
Your dynamic mic will be fine with phantom power on. Line level devices should not be used with phantom power.
Insert humorous signature here.

Offline mike42

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1786
  • Good Vibes 44
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 11:18:21 pm »
Side bar question - Dynamic for vocals, Condenser for guitar ? Is this the way to go ?

It depends. The simple (and maybe less helpful) answer is to experiment and see what sounds good.

Dynamic mics are commonly used for live vocal applications (think Shure SM58!), probably less so in the studio. However, I've recorded vocals with my SM57 and a dynamic can be the way to go in certain situations or on certain voices.

I've tried to record my acoustic with my SM57, but I definitely prefer the sound of a condenser. You'll probably find that your condenser mic tends to sound 'warmer' than the dynamic on vocals and acoustic guitar. This is because condensers are more sensitive and tend to have a greater high frequency response.

Check out these frequency charts:

Shure SM57:


CAD M179 (Cardioid Pattern):


As you can see, the SM57 rolls off heavily above 10kHz. The CAD M179 also starts to drop off around 15kHz, but it will pick up a lot more of those high frequencies.

My explanation is somewhat simplified and depends on the specific mics being compared since the frequency response can vary greatly between any two mics. There are also a number of other variables to factor into the equation, which is why it's always good to experiment and let your ears decide!  ;)

Offline tobyjenner

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3261
  • Good Vibes 115
  • You're never too old to Rock'n'Roll
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2015, 07:54:00 pm »
Thanks for the responses guys, especially those relating to the health and safety aspect of Phantom power and dynamic mics. Guess I was thinking about those actual and urban myths of electrocuted performers  ;D

I've been searching around for the article I read earlier in the year which prompted me to go for a condenser and dynamic for recording vocals and acoustic but can't track it down. The YT vid below is pretty much in the same vain, which pointed me in the dynamic for vocals, condenser for acoustic.




My main objective at the moment is firstly recording some acoustic stuff and secondly recording singing and playing, once I get over my confidence issues, and will be to assess my performance and mostly like forum posts for feedback. Layering and / or tweaking (or whatever the word is for applying effects !) is probably further down the line, assuming I can stand my own voice. But I'm more concerned with the concurrent singing and playing element but yes I can see that 'single' tracking would give me a cleaner outcome and be infinitely more 'tweakable'.

I'll be messing around with this in the new year but the focus is completing the IM first. So watch this space.

Toby
 8)
Arrived here Mar 2013 Since completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM and MTMS Now on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
My Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/tobyjenner/
Roadcase : https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg339454#msg33945

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3035
  • Good Vibes 80
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2015, 08:18:45 pm »
He's referring to the polar pattern, and not to the type of transducer - so basically he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

An omni mic will pick up sound from all directions. A cardioid mic is called a cardioid mic because of its heart-shaped pickup pattern and rejects sound from the rear. Supercardiod and hypercardioid mics have even tighter pickup patterns. You can get omni and cardioid patterns in both condenser, and dynamic mics. Cardioid dynamic mics are usually used for recording live vocals because of their durability and feedback rejection..

If you use two different mics for recording the vocals and guitar at the same time instead of tracking them separately, you have to be very careful about mic placement and movement or you can get phasing issues and the mics will cancel each other out at certain frequencies.. especially if one, or both are omnidirectional.

Phantom power uses around 48 volts of low current DC on pins 2 & 3 of the XLR. It's really not dangerous. The stories of people being injured or killed are usually the result of grounding or wiring issues with the higher current, higher voltage AC.
Don't know what mics you have, but generally the condenser mics will work better for recording vocal and acoustic guitar. Some condenser mics can internally clip when recording loud sources so it can be better to use the dynamic mics on louder things - like horns or guitar or bass cabinets.. 
Use whichever mic sounds best..

Edit:  Oh!  I forgot to mention:  Cardioid mics are subject to "proximity effect."  A distance change of as little as 1 cm from the source can affect the frequency response of the mic. When you move farther away from a cardioid mic, you'll lose a lot of the low frequencies. (You'll notice it in the Youtube video that you shared.)  If the dynamic mic that you ordered is cardioid, the distance between the mic, and the source can make drastic changes in the way the mic sounds. Experiment with mic placement a lot..
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 09:03:56 pm by Scooter Trash »
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline mike42

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1786
  • Good Vibes 44
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2015, 10:57:10 pm »
Experiment with mic placement a lot..

Just want to reiterate this point. When I first started recording I would just set up the mic in front of me, hit record and hope the track sounded nice. I didn't realize how much mic placement can affect the sound.

These days, I'll usually set up the mic, record a few bars, move it, record a few more. I'll usually try 2-3 different placements and pick the best one.

Also, if you haven't already, check out www.therecordingrevolution.com for some great lessons on recording and mixing. There is a ton of useful information and I have learned a lot from that site.

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 14966
  • Good Vibes 329
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2015, 03:37:22 am »
Use the mics either way... whichever sounds best.

Also don;t think completely this mic for this and that mic for that.

How about both mics for both? Place one mic as the close mic for both... and the other mic as the distant mic for both.  and/or do the switcharoo

Multiple tracks... guitar vs vocal vs mic
More tracks ... mic vs room vs instrument/voice

You have many dimensions to play with. with multiple tracking you could even do many tracks with one mic and then simply blend in the alternate mic in only one of the possible perspectives.

The problem you will run into is phase cancellations with all those various mics and locations and double singing/playing the same lines.... but, if you can keep that under control you can get lots of sounds and get away from the 'this for that' thinking which can be restrictive.



Gone

Offline tobyjenner

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3261
  • Good Vibes 115
  • You're never too old to Rock'n'Roll
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2015, 07:52:54 pm »
Again may thanks for the info guys, especially Scoot. Wish I'd punted a few questions a year ago before I started down this road but hey I could always buy another condenser!

The mics are both low end but one my budgets tight and two if the vocals don't pan out I'll stick to playing and that would be the time to upgrade to something better, assuming these two are found wanting.
https://images6.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/136587.pdf
https://images4.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/specs/c_datasheet_165293_v2_en_online.pdf
They've both decent write ups if you believe its customer feedback and not a couple of marketing bs posts (for ever the cynic  :) )

Hey at least I've now worked out how to get Reaper to see both inputs on separate tracks oh the joys of discovery at my age.

TB funny you should mention using two mics for both, as I was reading this article last night. Certainly worth experimenting.

https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013311/10-Microphone-Placement-Techniques-for-Acoustic-Guitar

Mike many thanks for that link. It looks familiar but I can't find it bookmarked on my PC so I may have seen it reference in another post. Looks really useful and something to read over Xmas.

And on that note Happy Holidays or whatever you want to call it.

Cheers

Toby
 8)
Arrived here Mar 2013 Since completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM and MTMS Now on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
My Soundcloud : https://soundcloud.com/tobyjenner/
Roadcase : https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=39537.msg339454#msg33945

Offline 12-string_Doug

  • Concert Hall Hasbeen
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
  • Good Vibes 16
Re: Don't Wanna Be Electrocuted For Christmas
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2015, 08:39:37 pm »
  Just wanted to add to what Scooter said about phantom power being pretty safe. Do keep in mind that sometimes amps have step-up transformers, and you can end up with even more voltage than what comes from the mains outlets. Your caution in using it was a good thing, as sometimes even an unpowered dynamic mic can deliver a shock if something's not grounded properly.

  I'm learning stuff from this thread, too. (I acquired my first DAW and first condenser mic recently.) Thanks for the Recording Revolution link, Mike42.  8)

 

Get The Forum As A Mobile App