Author Topic: Anyone want to mix a song for me?  (Read 39999 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline diademgrove

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1038
  • Good Vibes 48
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2015, 09:44:47 am »
If you like the 2/4 fine... but a chorus is supposed to be -- the same thing-- ... and this style of music is known for choruses... it's not Frank Zappa.

I mean it's her song, but why not just fix it? It's a simple matter to fix...
1st chorus.. hold A for two more beats. 2nd chorus.. hold E for two more beats. Done.

Then the whole world can clap and play to it without getting lost.

This is from one of Justin's lesson. I had no problem tapping my foot even though there are a few bars of 2/4





Definitely not Frank Zappa.

From another one of Justin's lessons, not as many uses of 2/4





As long as the underlying beat is on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4 etc you should have no problem keeping the beat and clapping along.

Where the chorus starts and ends is of course a different thing and down to personal taste. I like the unexpected early start to the second chorus and the lag before the solo starts. It underlines the emotion of the song and lets the stealing my heart line linger until the solo comes in.

Only Hollywood knows if that was intentional or not.

Offline Hollywood

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1750
  • Good Vibes 43
    • Official Website
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2015, 03:17:02 pm »
Update - I've got the deadline taken care of now.  Take your time.  :)

Where the chorus starts and ends is of course a different thing and down to personal taste. I like the unexpected early start to the second chorus and the lag before the solo starts. It underlines the emotion of the song and lets the stealing my heart line linger until the solo comes in.

Only Hollywood knows if that was intentional or not.

I guess it's all intentional, really.  I just kept playing with it until what I played matched what I heard in my head. I like how it sounds, and if it becomes a problem when I start playing it live with other musicians, then we'll worry about it.
Frontwoman of alt-rock band Lighting Matches - debut album "Against The Flame"
www.LightingMatchesMusic.com
www.Facebook.com/LightingMatchesMusic

Debut solo EP "Destination Sunday" (Rachel White)

Offline Cue Zephyr

  • All Time Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 6476
  • Good Vibes 91
    • Ezyo Music
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2015, 03:25:59 pm »
As long as it's consistent, it can't possibly be a problem. I actually like those little quirks in songs that you only really notice when you're learning it.
Guitar, banjo, mandolin and piano, bass and percussion
Production and mixing

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2015, 03:36:34 pm »
I believe that once you start paying for studio time you will become more thirsty for traditional methods. Money is a great motivator, especially when it's going out rather than coming in.








Gone

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2015, 03:44:44 pm »
As long as it's consistent, it can't possibly be a problem.

The choruses are all different.





Gone

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2015, 04:23:02 pm »
This is from one of Justin's lesson. I had no problem tapping my foot even though there are a few bars of 2/4

Of course not, why would you? It's like Majik said if you can count to 2 you can tap through it.

That doesn't mean you are on the beat. Go watch the thread on clapping on the 2 and 4. They all had no problem clapping and tapping either... they were all on the wrong beat, but hey... who really cares where the ONE is.

On the third beat of bar 45 Rachel will on the ONE of A and everyone else will be on the 3 of E based on the feel and harmonic structure of the song up to that point.  A very familiar I IV V structure. The V starts on beat 1 and is cut off at beat 2. Had the V started on beat 3 and only lasted 2 beats... that would be different... then it would simply be a normal 2 beat V chord at end of 4/4 bar.

and again.. each chorus ending is handled differently in this regard.

but back to your foot tapping, you can tap your foot to all manner of complex time sig changes. You won't know where the ONE is but unless the tempo changes you will just keep tapping away and be on a beat... no idea which beat but you'll be on a beat.





Gone

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #106 on: May 18, 2015, 05:21:24 pm »
Count this ... to the piano.....

Count out loud...

Tell me what beat the word Bev of "Beven tries to change the nation" lands on.






Spolier:

Rock and Roll Star is a bar of 2/4... the "aaaaaaaaaaar" of Star is a whole note in 4/4 in the following measure ... "staaaaaaaaaaaaaar" is a tied note across two measures.... so Bev falls on 1.

As Cue said consistency... This song does that same thing over and over AND those specific words are significant in that they are the song... that's the title of the song.

Now go back and count it 1&2&3&4& and when it get's to Rock and Roll count !&2& -- 1&2&3&4& and when Bev hits you will be on ONE.

In fact it is so smooth and natural that even if you jump ahead in the song to anywhere he sings "Rock and Roll..." you just go 1&2&ONE and there will be the big drop on ONE.

My point is that Rachel's song lacks this consistency and it's quite easily cured. However, if she doesn't want to go down that road, that's fine, it's her song. Thus far people are stumbling on it... even though everyone will agree it's quite a nice song..... to me... the fact other musicians are stumbling on it is a clue.... but that's just me.

Some will even argue the songwriter need not even know what they have written, hey,,, fine by me... I'm just trying to point out what is and how it compares to successful established music that has stood the test of time.

Gone

Offline diademgrove

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1038
  • Good Vibes 48
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #107 on: May 18, 2015, 08:32:10 pm »
Count this ... to the piano.....

Count out loud...

Tell me what beat the word Bev of "Beven tries to change the nation" lands on.







If you count 4/4 "Bevan" starts on the beat 3, no wonder I'm screwed up. I didn't put this on my record player in 1972 and count the beats. I let it wash over me whilst my mam and dad told me to turn that racket down.

Great song from a great album.  Lead guitar, and lots more on the LP, courtesy of my ex-park keeper.

The 2/4 bar of silence allows you to savour the thought of being a rock and roll star. 4/4 would have been too long. Just goes to show that if a song with the odd 2/4 bar works, it works.
 

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #108 on: May 18, 2015, 09:32:08 pm »
Just goes to show that if a song with the odd 2/4 bar works, it works.

As we have all been saying. Again.... no one... is saying don't use 2/4 in a song. However conversely, if a bar of 2/4 in a song created a hitch, it would probably be best to forgo it. FIRST though.... one must identify it..... Majik identified it. Rachel sensed it existed but did not really understand it... as a new songwriter she needs to understand it... no matter if she uses it or not.

Also there is no bar of 2/4 silence in the Bowie song. Again please count Rock and Roll Star as ..
Rock
1&2&1&2&3&4&BEV

No silence. A strategic use of a 2/4 bar that serves the song. Less would not have been enough and more would have been too much.

Rachel on the other hand can add those 2 beats in her song and it won't be too much. In my opinion it will be just right but that's beside the point. The point is can she now identify what she has done such that she could explain it to others in her band.

Gone

Offline diademgrove

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1038
  • Good Vibes 48
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2015, 10:28:01 pm »
Also there is no bar of 2/4 silence in the Bowie song. Again please count Rock and Roll Star as ..
Rock
1&2&1&2&3&4&BEV


You're right, no silence there's the tail of the electric guitar from the previous bar. The playing stops for two beats though.

I'll think you'll find that the 2/4 bar comes at the end of star rather than over the rock as it would require two 2/4 bars in the third verse as the 2/4 bar of "silence" disappears as it moves into the middle 8.

As for Hollywood's song the only problem I had playing the bass was in the bridge where I got lost. Yes you could make the song symmetrical and consistent but for me that would lose some of its charm. I accept that's my personal taste.

Offline Majik

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 2918
  • Good Vibes 219
    • My Road Case
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2015, 10:39:50 pm »
I feel I have opened a can of worms here... :-\

I have to say I have a bit of a foot in both sides of the discussion here.

As a listener, as an appreciator of music, I didn't hear anything specifically wrong with the song that made me think "that's not right".

As a (wannabe) musician, when I tried to work with it, it was problematic. Not  massively, but enough to grate. I put this partly down to a little OCD, but I can certainly see why it might cause problems in a studio.

I do think it needs to be fixed at some point. As it is, it's "unconventional" but not in a particularly useful or clever way. To be absolutely positive about that I would want to hear both versions, but I suspect I would prefer the more conventionally structured version on the basis that those conventions exist for a reason (especially in genres like Country Music).

I also think it's an important bit of learning for Rachel and, if she aspires to continue writing original songs then it's a valuable lesson: understanding and analysing song structure will only help Hollywood to write better songs IMO, but I speak from the viewpoint of someone who has never written anything even a fraction as good as the song in this thread.

The question is should it be addressed now, or later? I think only Hollywood can answer that truthfully.

I think the passion and commitment that has gone into this song does show, and rerecording parts of it may be seen a significant time commitment, maybe even a chore. There's also the question of the deadline that is looming.

I think it also depends what the end-game for this song is. If it's to showcase your talents as a singer, musician, and songwriter to further your career, then I would definitely rerecord as I suspect a professional musician or producer is likely to spot the inconstancy a mile off and mark you down for it. If it's for something more personal, then it's not so important.

I will point out that, with modern DAW software, as long as you record to a click track and give enough lead in and out, you don't have to record the whole thing. You should just be able to re-record the choruses.

Cheers,

Keith

Offline Majik

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 2918
  • Good Vibes 219
    • My Road Case
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #111 on: May 18, 2015, 11:16:38 pm »
For reference, this is how I see the song structure. I used ranges in the DAW to mark out where I thought each section was and this is the result. Being lazy, I've just cut/pasted a screen shot from the DAW:



The first column is the start bar/measure, the second is the end bar/measure and the last column is the section length (ignore the rounding error on Verse2 length which I have reported as a bug, it should be "008|00|000"). This assumes 4/4 time signature.

By my reckoning, the first and second Choruses are 12.5 bars long and the final chorus is 14.5 bars long.

So, IMO there is some consistency in the choruses, but the extra half-bar in each still feels a little weird when trying to add other tracks to it.

Cheers,

Keith

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #112 on: May 18, 2015, 11:21:05 pm »

I'll think you'll find that the 2/4 bar comes at the end of star rather than over the rock as it would require two 2/4 bars in the third verse as the 2/4 bar of "silence" disappears as it moves into the middle 8.

It varies in the other sections. Also that da dah da dah da dah dah guitar figure that repeats 3X is a combo of 4/4+2/4.. the last dah dah is 2/4

da dah da dah da | dah dah     ===  that's 4/4 + 2/4

Later on Rock falls mid bar of a 4/4 bar followed by a bar of Star at 4/4 as well.

But there is no "silence" over a 2/4 bar



Gone

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2015, 12:08:12 am »
I have to say I have a bit of a foot in both sides of the discussion here.

I heard something that bothered me but I didn't know what it was. When I tried to play to it, I thought wtf am I doing wrong.... and of all things I was trying to play drums and I wasn't playing from the top, I just hit a section and go... just to get that 4/4 beat... which I kept finding and then losing.

So I decided to map it out and that's when I read your post and realized what was happening. It's perfectly normal things to do. It's little enough to go un noticed and big enough to perhaps change for the sake of performing with a band.

Other than that I agree with other observations. It's actually an excellent learning experience especially for Rachel but for anyone involved.

As far as editing it in a DAW.. .should be very easy... might not even have to redo any parts. Lots of repetition that can be cut/paste. Haven't looked closely but seems like it would be possible.
Gone

Offline Majik

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 2918
  • Good Vibes 219
    • My Road Case
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2015, 12:30:46 am »
As far as editing it in a DAW.. .should be very easy... might not even have to redo any parts. Lots of repetition that can be cut/paste. Haven't looked closely but seems like it would be possible.

Actually I've just done that. I have a (very unfinished) version I cobbled together. It doesn't have much in the way of production tweaks, because I reverted to the original files to do it, but if people are interested I could post it.

EDIT: Did a few tweaks, including adding a hint of Marcus's strings, and posted just so you can hear the difference with the revised structure. Unless I have screwed up (entirely possible) this should be the more conventional structure with an even number of bars in the choruses.

https://soundcloud.com/majik394/goodkindofcriminal-r3-session

https://soundcloud.com/majik394/goodkindofcriminal-r3-session

Cheers,

Keith
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 01:33:02 am by Majik »

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2015, 01:30:59 am »
oops.. posting at same time

OK, so what exactly did you do? I was talking about simply making bar 45 4 beats long. You have made 13 bars into 12... ? is that right? Where did you make your change?

If this was the before first chorus,, what is your after...
Chorus 1
D A E A D A E A D A D E 4/4 + A in 2/4 ( bar 45 )

« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 02:10:42 am by TB-AV »
Gone

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Good Vibes 83
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2015, 02:21:22 am »
https://soundcloud.com/scooter-trash/rachels-song

https://soundcloud.com/scooter-trash/rachels-song

Sorry.. those highs and high-mids were killing me.
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline Hollywood

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 1750
  • Good Vibes 43
    • Official Website
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2015, 03:01:59 am »
Scooter - I really like that overall mix, actually.  The more I listen to it, the more errors I hear in my vocal.  Today I was singing in my room and felt like it sounded better than normal (after doing some exercises) so I did a quick redo of the vocal and then just did my quick mix to it.  What do you think of this one? (it's the exact same except for the vocals)  Still not perfect, but... yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iwkkFtE4oE
Frontwoman of alt-rock band Lighting Matches - debut album "Against The Flame"
www.LightingMatchesMusic.com
www.Facebook.com/LightingMatchesMusic

Debut solo EP "Destination Sunday" (Rachel White)

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Good Vibes 83
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2015, 03:12:40 am »
Scooter - I really like that overall mix, actually.  The more I listen to it, the more errors I hear in my vocal.  Today I was singing in my room and felt like it sounded better than normal (after doing some exercises) so I did a quick redo of the vocal and then just did my quick mix to it.  What do you think of this one? (it's the exact same except for the vocals)  Still not perfect, but... yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iwkkFtE4oE

The link isn't working for me..  But if nothing else, you might share the vocal track so that the vocals can be doubled without using un-natural-sounding vocal doubling effects.

BTW, if anyone else is concerned with those high-mids, some multiband compression between 1.2k and 6.2k works wonders.
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2015, 06:01:21 am »
Gone

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Good Vibes 83
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2015, 06:04:54 am »
Still to bright?

https://soundcloud.com/tb-av/basemix3/s-Ipyuj

I didn't even have to listen to it.. I could tell by looking at the Soundcloud waveform that it was going to be better. Yes. Vocal frequency spectrum is much better. Bass is way heavy.

If you put a frequency analyzer on just the vocal track and watch carefully in the high-mids when you hear the nasally notes, it can help with eq'ing.
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2015, 06:17:06 am »
Yeah, I know the bass is whack... I just wanted to hear something loud and low with it.  I just grabbed the first track I had.

How can you tell by a SC wave what the frequency is?
Gone

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Good Vibes 83
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2015, 06:21:50 am »
There's a free multiband compressor called 5ORCERY that can be a bit buggy, but it has a preset called; "female vocal painkiller" that can can get ya real close on this vocal.
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Offline TB-AV

  • Honorable Ex-Mod
  • All Time Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 12698
  • Good Vibes 331
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #123 on: May 19, 2015, 06:33:25 am »
I'm trying to do everything on this new mixer... although I still don't have things set up like I want yet. I still had to make a big broad eq cut on the whole deal after I printed the wave file. I used the ozone eq for that.

Gone

Offline Scooter Trash

  • Stadium Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Good Vibes 83
Re: Anyone want to mix a song for me?
« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2015, 06:39:13 am »
I'm trying to do everything on this new mixer... although I still don't have things set up like I want yet. I still had to make a big broad eq cut on the whole deal after I printed the wave file. I used the ozone eq for that.

If you have Ozone, you can do the multiband compression in the dynamics module...
I dream of a better tomorrow where chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

 

Get The Forum As A Mobile App