Stitch (here's a reason why - RUPAT Awesome BTW)

[shadowscott007]

@stitch,

Answering this question here.  Somehow the previous split became re-merged.  This is all about answering your question in terms of what I am trying to with RUPAT track 1. 

At least in a couple few ways...   

When I'm done I will go back to the split and re-merged thread and respond with a link to here.

Anyway I think we left off here.  With your question:

Here`s where the discussion came in.
I know the major and relative minor have the same note but are used differently. I know that position
2 of a scale is the Dorian mode of the second note of the root scale. But what I don`t know is why
we need to know this. I spent most of my life no knowing any of this but now I have this internal need
to know why.

So let`s chat and anyone who has something to say ia welcome to join in.

I say see and think a lot here.  But I am doing it while playing so hear and feel might be more accurate as a goal. 

Spoilers follow:

The first progression is: | G   | Gmaj7   | C   | D   |
(Ed: thank you Zapped from and ancient post - I had D/Bm7 for the Gmaj7 but neither was quite right!).

1 - Arpeggios

So I decide I wanted to work on my Triad Arpeggios - I can't use arpeggio's for crap.  Why learn, 7, Maj7, mi7 if you can't even use the easy triad arpeggios...

I decided (because it is the easiest, and as previously mentioned I suck at arpeggios) to use the E Major shape arpeggios.

So E shape arpeggio's at the third fret, 8th fret, and the 10th fret.

So I find it convenient to think of the position I jumped to play the C arpeggio as the 3rd major scale position.   The Dorian/Lydian position, where the 3 and 4 interval are the low notes. 124, 134, 134, 13, 124, 124.  So I went to IV Chord E shape position; 124, 134, 134, 13, 124, 124.  So it is convenient for me to think of myself in the "Lydian" place the IV chord place. the this shape place, with this root place.

I can't/won't/don't like to think of where I am doing with a IV chord E shape arpeggio as "the C shape G major position" it is but at the moment I'm all about the C chord and want to see that E shape there.

Same for the D arpeggio. I like thinking of myself being at the E shape Mixolydian location, 24, 234, 234, 134, s134, 13.  I find A shape G major scale an inconvenient thought, regardless of the accuracy.

2 - Leady bits

So to start, I am playing the G major scale at the third fret.  Here I am looking at it "conventionally.  E shape G Ionian/Major.  There is the G pentatonic major in there.  And I am seeing the delta - the spice notes, the C and the F# (4 and maj7) as highlighted on the pentatonic. 

The highlight tells me two things... these notes can sound really cool OR they can sound really bad.  They are THE difference sonically between a pentatonic and diatonic.

So you gotta be careful using them.

I considered if it would make any sense to mentally shift  thinking to C Lydian.  I decided against it.  Too... thinky... one bar of a chord... overall tonality G major... I see the "C" note, the 4, popping out in the G scale...

Same for the D chord bar.  The F# note pops.

So I am trying to see G major and pent at the same time, or see the delta to help me use the spice right.  As much my ears and the fretboard map in my head.... I say think a lot.  I'm really trying just to see it and hear it not think it.  But to get there I have to force it into my playing, be aware of it, then forget it later.

That spice, where those notes fit, that is G Ionian...

There is a section in Em (vi), and a section in C (IV) I am working through with a similar train of thought.

Don't know how long the arpeggio focus will last, lotsa just straight up jamming too.  Trying to merge the two as well.

Fun stuff; excellent product.  TON's of fodder.  And I've just started messing with the first track.

Shadow

[stitch101]

Thanks for the reply Shadow. Gave me a lot to chew on. Going to take a while to let this sink in.

[stitch101]

Before I get fully confused I want to see if I understand the basics of modes first.
Lets not get into 3NPS I understand how they work, what they are and that the Major Scale is one
of the patterns.

1) the Major Scale is the Ionian Mode. So the Ionian Mode must have the 5 Patterns(shape) of the CAGED System

2) the Minor Scale is the Aeolian Mode the 6th of the Major scale. So it must have same 5 patterns.

3) the Dorian Mode is the 2nd of the Major Scale and if you play the D shape (pattern 2) G starting
at the A this is Dorian Mode. Adding the 6th and the 9th to the A minor scale Making the Dorian Mode
a Minor scale.

This is where I get confused. Is this an A Dorian scale or G Dorian with an A tonal center?

[Endureth]

1) the Major Scale is the Ionian Mode. So the Ionian Mode must have the 5 Patterns(shape) of the CAGED System

The first position of the major scale is Ionian.  The second is Dorian, the sixth is Aeolian, etc.

[TB-AV]

When ever you name a scale as X Dorian or Y Phrygian etc...

That is what it is.  The note name indicates the tonal center.

G Phrygian = G tonality

D Dorian = D tonality

F# Lydian = F# tonality


You have to understand the mode and which place it holds in a Parent Scale.

For instance you always know that Mixolydian is the 5th degree from the Parent Major/Ionian. But a scale named X Mixolydian = X tonality.

Same with a chord AMaj7 = A chord, Am = A chord, Ab5b9 = A chord   now all those A chords don't necessarily belong to A Major/Ionian.... used alone they may have A tonality but used with other chord chords could take on a different tonality .... the entire mode though as a scale generally retains it's tonality if you are playing a modal vamp.

If you were applying a "mode" over a "chord" it's possible then your "tonality" might be something other than the name of the mode..... at least for the whole composition. If however you simply took a snapshot in time of a single chord from a progression then the chord and mode would have their named tonality as above.

[stitch101]

1) the Major Scale is the Ionian Mode. So the Ionian Mode must have the 5 Patterns(shape) of the CAGED System

The first position of the major scale is Ionian.  The second is Dorian, the sixth is Aeolian, etc.

If I understand this correctly.
The second position would still be the Major scale if you start it on the root note. It only becomes Dorian
if you start it on the second degree of the scale. So if I start the G Major Scale on the G note third sting
it is a G major scale. If I start the same scale on the A note sixth string it would be the A Dorian.
Is this correct?

If that is correct. If I start any of the 5 major scale patterns(CADED patterns) on the second degree of
the scale it would be classed as a Dorian Mode. Am I on the right track?

When ever you name a scale as X Dorian or Y Phrygian etc...

That is what it is.  The note name indicates the tonal center.

Thanks TB-AV that cleared some of the fog away.

[Endureth]

If I start any of the 5 major scale patterns(CADED patterns) on the second degree of
the scale it would be classed as a Dorian Mode. Am I on the right track?

You're confusing CAGED with modes here.  There are 5 CAGED shapes, there are 7 modes.  The CAGED shapes are used to play the chords C, A, G, E, and D anywhere on the fretboard.  Understanding the modes helps you play the major scale from anywhere within the scale and be able to see how all seven modes are connected to one another over the entire fretboard, regardless of where you start.

Unfortunately, it's not quite so cut and dry though.  Depending on the key of the song you may be playing the Aeolian mode as your first position scale, Locrian as the second and Ionian as the third.  You're still playing the major scale.  The important thing is to learn the shapes of the modes and the order in which they're connected, which never changes.

Keep in mind, I play bass so I have a better understanding of modes than I do the CAGED shapes.

[TB-AV]

You're confusing CAGED with modes here.  There are 5 CAGED shapes, there are 7 modes. 

That's like saying you can only play 5 chords with CAGED. You can map out all your modal scales in CAGED format.

the one marked 7 (top left) is the E SHAPE

[Endureth]

That's like saying you can only play 5 chords with CAGED.

Except that's not what I said.    So it's not really like I said that :p

[TB-AV]

Ok,,, then where is he confused in his comment? His statement and question were correct.

If you start playing a Major scale pattern from the 2nd degree it's Dorian.

[stitch101]

That's what I was thinking if you start any of the patterns on the second, third or what ever degree you'd
be playing the mode of that degree.  So you can play all 5 caged shapes in the 7 modes.

I think I'm starting to understand. 

Going let this sink in for a bit
 

 

[close2u]

@stitch,

Answering this question here.  Somehow the previous split became re-merged. 

[mod note - I split your conversation (which was in a lesson specific thread) and merged all relevant parts in to one thread all on topic ... don't know why you felt the need to start another one really ... ]

[TB-AV]

That's what I was thinking if you start any of the patterns on the second, third or what ever degree you'd
be playing the mode of that degree.  So you can play all 5 caged shapes in the 7 modes.

I think I'm starting to understand. 

Going let this sink in for a bit

correct ... the Major Scale. The only thing is the numbers change. For instance if Dorian was 2 of Major it now becomes 1 of Dorian if you simply intend to stay fully Dorian. What you will want to know though is what are the target tones of any mode. The modal pattern and the target notes that give it it's flavor.

[shadowscott007]

Somehow this is way simpler in my head than it seems when I try to explain it.  Maybe looking at the elephant from a different angle.

RUPAT track 15 - Am keyboard pad; just an Am chord held to solo over.  The question is which Am do I want it to be?

Regardless I can play Am pentatonic minor over it.  Fifth fret, box one. 5 8, 5 7, 5 7, 5 7, 5 8, 5 8.

Or I can decide it is the ii chord.  So I can play A Dorian over it.  5 7 8, 5 7, 4 5 7, 4 5 7, 5 7 8, 5 7 8.  This is the same scale pattern as the D shape G major scale - the G note is on the 4th string 5th fret.  But I want to think about it as the A Dorian.  And I get this jazzy smokey vibe.

Or I can decide it is the iii chord.  So I can play A Phrygian over it.  5 6 8, 5 7 8, 5 7 8, 5 7, 5 6 8, 5 6 8.  This is the same scale pattern as the C shape F major scale - the F note is on the 5th string 8th fret.  But I want to think of it as A Phrygian.  I get the latin/spanish type vibe. 

Or I can decide it is the vi chord.  So I can play A Aeolian over it.  5 7 8, 5 7 8, 5 7, 4 5 7, 5 6 8, 5 7 8.  This is the same scale pattern as the G shape C major scale - the C note is on the 6th string 8th fret.  But I want to think of it as A Aeolian.  I get this sad or menacing vibe.

Each has the pentatonic minor pattern at its heart; they differ only in the quality of the 2nd and 6th degrees of the scale; Dorian 2 and 6; Phrygian b2 and b6; Aeolian (natural minor) 2 and b6.

(Okay there is a fourth thing and fifth thing that someone - who is not me, who is better than me - could play over the pad, A Harmonic Minor and/or A Melodic minor).

But I already know the patterns, my hand knows the shape under my fingers, no "new scale" to memorize.  The pattern, the shapes, I already know. 

There is just different emphasis - a different "home".  I use the same patterns but a bit differently than if I was playing in G, F or C.  I'm thinking Am, and the Am pentatonic helps guide me to the sweetest tones for resolution, the extra notes provide the spice and flavor on the mode.

Read through it, once again it still seems more complicated that it is.  But I wrote it so i guess I'll post it.

Shadow

[TB-AV]

You could pretend the Am is the top half of a G13 chord G B D F A C E and play G Mixolydian ..... 5th mode of C major .... which is relative to Am...... 

[Endureth]

Regardless I can play Am pentatonic minor over it.
Or I can decide it is the ii chord.  And I get this jazzy smokey vibe.
Or I can decide it is the iii chord.  I get the latin/spanish type vibe. 
Or I can decide it is the vi chord.  I get this sad or menacing vibe.
Each has the pentatonic minor pattern at its heart.

Ding!

I still don't get it completely but that helped.

[TB-AV]

Regardless I can play Am pentatonic minor over it.
Or I can decide it is the ii chord.  And I get this jazzy smokey vibe.
Or I can decide it is the iii chord.  I get the latin/spanish type vibe. 
Or I can decide it is the vi chord.  I get this sad or menacing vibe.
Each has the pentatonic minor pattern at its heart.

Ding!

I still don't get it completely but that helped.

Possibly because you forgot to quote the most important part..  It is a given that Am is Am is Am. doesn't matter if it's ii ii vi, they all would have minor Pentatonic as a go to safe scale.

BUT....

Each has the pentatonic minor pattern at its heart; they differ only in the quality of the 2nd and 6th degrees of the scale; Dorian 2 and 6; Phrygian b2 and b6; Aeolian (natural minor) 2 and b6.

Those notes will "define" which scale degree you have chosen the Am to be. If all you play is Pentatonic then it's ominous. When you add those other notes ( only one set per musical idea or it would get confusing ), that is when the modal flavor will present itself. through those two extra notes that you focus on and accent in your phrasing.

EX: Am Vamp
Play 8 bars of Am Pent to get things rolling
Next Play 8 bars of A Dorian ( focus heavily on target notes for Dorian )
Next go back to straight Pentatonic to clear the palette for 8 bars
Now play A Phrygian and focus on Phrygian target notes for 8 bars
clear palette for 8 with Pentatonic
Next new modal idea for 8 bars
Etc... just keep exploring.

But don;t mix too much up into one phrasing ... unless you are really good at getting the idea across.

[shadowscott007]

...see the A pentatonic minor pattern you already know at the 5th fret...
...see one of the three major scale patterns you already know at the 5th fret for Am... (start 2, 3, or 6 on the 5th fret)...

play with the extra two notes, get them working, hear the sound of them against the Aminor-ness

then lather rinse and repeat with the other two major scale patterns...

I guess the point is you didn't have to learn anything new - you just had to use something you already knew in a different way...

Shadow

[stitch101]

Sitting here after work and re read posts then read the new post. Shadows new post(13) was the first new
one. After reading the different Vibe thing this hit me like a ton of bricks.

The Dorian Scale add the 6th and the 9th to the Minor Pentatonic(this I knew). The other day there was a
thread about Gospel Slides with uses 6th and 9th chords. So the Dorian mode would be ideal to play over
songs using Gospel Slides. So I'm going to go watch some videos of Stormy Monday and see if I can use the
Dorian Mode over it.

[TB-AV]

However you decide to learn where to put your fingers.... I can tell you that many guitarists that can play the strings off the guitar recommend you to learn the pattern per scale.

IOW,,, just as you would learn the Major Scale from point X to point y... be it via CAGED, 3NPS, a multi octave pattern across the mid section of the neck or whatever....  ... practically everyone is in agreement that you need to learn your pattens for each scale.

So basically you learn
3 5 7 8 10 12 14 15 is G Major
3 5 6 8 10 ... etc ... is G minor

You learn each mode in a likewise manner.

You can do it by adding to, changing, subtracting from a known entity but player/teachers that are way up there say most people have much better results learning each mode as it's own thing. so if someone says play Eb Phrygian you automatically know that pattern   1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and you need to count it the same way from the Tonic note.

A Dorian would not have notes from it's parent scale numbers. It would start with A=1

The A Dorian interesting notes would be A B D and F#... 1 2 4 6 with 6 being the "different minor note". It's a natural 6.  Notes in bold are 9, 11, 13(6)  these will "extend" your Am 1 b3 5.

--------------------------------------5
------------------------5----7--8
-----------4--5----7
--------7
---
---
Play that over your Am chord.... then to mix things up a bit, ,play B minor Pent at 7 fret(E shape) and E minor Pent at 7th fret(A shape)

The purpose of the exercise:
You will have your Am Vamp going so it's always there to hold you.
When you play that A Dorian Scale "think" A Dorian. When you switch off to B minor Pent..."think" b minor Pent and nail the B note. You should know that pattern so there shouldn't be much thinking involved other than staying in time. Now switch back to A Dorian and "think" A dorian and nail the F# and B notes. Now switch into E minor Pent and "think" E minor Pent... nail that E note in time with the phrasing you developed from the A Dorian motif you started with.

You --should-- end up with something that has some subtle differences to it. Changing yet interesting but not so different that it's jarring in any way.

You can do this by playing this Am
5
5
5
7
x
x
Just play it like horns stabs or soft ////  shots just to have that easy Am in your head. then Dorian //// BmPent //// EminPent A Dorian ////  If you get it going right the E section will want to resolve back to your A and you can land in that B F# area for the darker Am tonality and then the soft chord to follow for total relax.

So the feel will be Light(chord) a little dark(Dorian) similar but different ( BmP) somewhat tense(EmP) somewhat dark but resolved tension (A Dorian) Light ( chord )

Give that a shot, all you have to learn is that one simple 4 string fingering. Just come up with a cool rhythm for your lead. Don't be afraid to play just one or two notes sometimes. Play them over and over in a cool rhythm. Then toss in one of your minor pent licks you might know...But land the right note to end it on or accent.

[shadowscott007]

@TB

I agree.  For A Dorian I would first thinK "2, 3, 4..." to find myself.  But once I am found I think "1, 2, b3..." and see the pent minor there as "safe notes" and the extra two as color notes.   Same with E Phrygian, "3, 4, 5,..." to "1, b2, b3..."

The first part leverages what I already "know" the G major scale shapes.  The second part gets me to the Aminor and the Dorian-ness or what I am doing.

Knowing the intervals of the mode, making 2 the new 1, is incredibly important.  But it is just re-labeling what you already know. 

Focus on the sameness and realize the difference or focus on the difference and realize the sameness.  It is the same set of notes being used differently. 

Shadow

[TB-AV]

For A Dorian I would first thinK "2, 3, 4..." to find myself.  But once I am found I think "1, 2, b3..."

Just made long post and lost it....... short story....

We learn chords. We play chords. We may understand that our progressions are ii V I, I IV V etc. But we simply play chords. We know a Blues is  I IV V, but if we decide to play an A Blues we think A D E.

We play the chords. We know when to play each chord. The very same thing holds true with scales / modes. If we learn the mode we have it. If we don;t learn it, we don't have it.

If all you can play is A and D chords you can't play that blues.
If you can hear the difference between G7 and GMaj7 you won't care to calculate where it is you apply either. You will simply hear it as the one you want and the other will sound bad.

Same with modes. If you hear them in your head and have them in your fingers, you simply use them as desired.  Dm G7 C Em Dm G7 C --- You might choose to simply play Phrygian over the minor sections of that progression as you hear the chords come around. Maybe you even decide to play Lydian or Diminished over the V chord.

The whole calculating thing is simply to understand where modes come from. In use they need to be utilized in the same way you play chords. You learn grips and then play them as needed. Same thing. Learn patten and play it as desired because of it's sound not because of where it resides in a technical sense.

[shadowscott007]

Again I agree.  But for me to get there I have to go through the think stage before I can forget it and just play.

So most of this crap was my think stuff...that I hope to forget while I play... but then when asked what I did I can try to explain...

Shadow

[TB-AV]

Yeah, my first message had the disclaimer.. Not specifically directing at you. For us all. We need/have to learn our modes in the same way we learn our chords.

You can either play a chord or you can't. If you can't play a chord you can't use it in a song. so you do one minute changes or whatever until you get it.

Same with modes. Just learn one scale in one place. I would rather know 5 scales and chords in the E Shape position and be able to switch between them without thought than 8 scales and chords up and down the neck that I had to "think" and "stumble" to.

The calculations are theory and proof. Good to know.
The hearing and playing are music. Good to be able to do without thought.

[stitch101]

We play the chords. We know when to play each chord. The very same thing holds true with scales / modes. If we learn the mode we have it. If we don;t learn it, we don't have it

This is where I think my problems is. I've never learned the names of things until a couple of years ago
when I started looking things up on the internet.

When I was learning guitar I'd jam with friends and played in bands. Someone would play something
that sounded cool or something they learned of a record. Then they'd teach it to the rest of us. But
know one would say that's a minor pentatonic scale or Major scale. They'd say this is  a classic Page
run of riff. You have to make it sound like Clapton. So I'm trying to take the sounds I hear and give them
Names. This is how I found Justin's web site in the first place.

I've learned how to play and all the names of the all the minor and major scales and the blues scale.
This wasn't to hard because I was playing and using them already I just had to learn what they were
called.

But Modes are totally new to me and when I play around with the A Dorian it ends up sound like an out
of key blues scale. I'm going to try TB's lesson tonight when I get home and hopefully something will
click.