Author Topic: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints  (Read 45728 times)

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Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2013, 06:21:07 pm »
Hi. I tried out my first transcribing of chords with the song , Boulevard of Broken Dreams.

But a problem occured.

I thought the chords initially were F#m , A , B and so on.
I was not feeling very confident about it and checked the hints by Justin and found that chords were Em , G, and so on with capo on 1st fret. I.e Actual chords were Fm and G# and so on.  Which means I was off by  one fret in my chord guessing.  :( . Is this natural in a beginner stage. I mean , I did try out Fm but thought F#m would be better. Is getting the chords wrong by 1 fret normal at this stage. I was somewhat getting the progression right but it was off by 1 fret.

Offline misterg

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2013, 06:38:53 pm »
Don't get hung up about it. It's all part of learning :-/ You need to be wrong sometimes :)


Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2013, 08:49:07 pm »
Hello. Thanks for replying.


Don't get hung up about it. It's all part of learning :-/ You need to be wrong sometimes :)


Ya. Quite challenging and enjoyable to try to figure out the chords , as immediate attention of the mind goes to the vocals .

Offline sophiehiker

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2013, 08:57:04 pm »
@Nikhil,  Also, try the "Listening to the Bass note" lesson (if you're not doing this already).  It should help focus in on the correct chords.

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/TR-201-ListenToBassNote.php

Cheers
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Offline misterg

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 10:39:57 pm »
Sorry, my first reply could have been more helpful:

Trying to get the correct chords when there's a capo involved is a bit of a curve-ball anyway, as even if you get the right chord, it sounds different, because of the different fingering. (I will admit to cheating on occasions if I want to work something out and looking for a live performance on youtube to see roughly where the chords are played  :-[)

The important question is whether you can hear that the "correct" chords fit better than your choices? What will you listen for next time to avoid the same thing?

Stick with it! :)

Andy

Offline mouser9169

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2013, 01:53:04 am »
Hi. I tried out my first transcribing of chords with the song , Boulevard of Broken Dreams.

But a problem occured.

I thought the chords initially were F#m , A , B and so on.
I was not feeling very confident about it and checked the hints by Justin and found that chords were Em , G, and so on with capo on 1st fret. I.e Actual chords were Fm and G# and so on.  Which means I was off by  one fret in my chord guessing.  :( . Is this natural in a beginner stage. I mean , I did try out Fm but thought F#m would be better. Is getting the chords wrong by 1 fret normal at this stage. I was somewhat getting the progression right but it was off by 1 fret.

Getting the 'progression' right is actually far more important than any individual chord.

If you get the progression right, but all the chords (ie: the whole progression) is shifted by 3 frets, when you play it, it will still sound like the original song - just in a different key.

If you get half the chords 'exactly' right, and the other half off by one fret, it's gonna sound like crap.
Mouser's Rules of Music:

1) Always Trust your Muse.
2) See Rule 1)

Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2013, 09:50:23 am »
Hello everyone, thanks for the replies. All were very helpful.

@Misterg , nice suggestion will try out with capo and try to figure out how it sounds better than my initial guesses.

I had a question related to the transcribe software. In it there is an option to slow down the song. It is indicated by an icon of a man running or walking - to symbolise speed up/slowing . My query is if I slow down a song  , will the pitch of a note I am focussing on change ?

I had asked this question in another thread too (http://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=29719.0). Sorry for asking again.

Offline sophiehiker

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2013, 12:47:24 pm »
I had a question related to the transcribe software. In it there is an option to slow down the song.

I don't use the Transcribe software, but I use Audacity which is similar.  In Audacity you can change the "Speed" or change the "Tempo".  Changing the "Speed" changes the pitch; changing the "Tempo" does not change the pitch.  Hope that helps.
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Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2013, 07:19:04 pm »
[quote author=sophiehiker link=topic=4251.msg259962#msg259962 date=1357908444

I don't use the Transcribe software, but I use Audacity which is similar.  In Audacity you can change the "Speed" or change the "Tempo".  Changing the "Speed" changes the pitch; changing the "Tempo" does not change the pitch.  Hope that helps.
[/quote]

Hello. Ya . Thanks.

@Nikhil,  Also, try the "Listening to the Bass note" lesson (if you're not doing this already).  It should help focus in on the correct chords.

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/TR-201-ListenToBassNote.php

Cheers

Hey. This is a really useful tip . I had not seen the lesson yet. Saw it today and it really helps find the chord in some cases. Sometimes , I had to listen very hard for the bass note. Sometimes it was easily heard. I guess it will take time and practice  to identify it right away amidst all the other sounds. But yes, whenever it is audible it really helps .Cheers.

Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2013, 07:25:49 am »
Hello.
I tried to transcribe a few songs and sometimes I can get the chords but sometimes I am way off.

For instance I tried transcribing the song "Time of Your life (Good riddance)" by Green Day and most of the chords I got right. But then it is one of the easier songs to transcribe as it has got acoustic guitar playing prominently so finding the chords is easier.  In it I got most of the chords right but in one place I transcribed an Em chord as a C chord. This is happening a lot with me. I guess it is because Em = EGB and C = CEG , two notes are common whereas one differs by only half semitone. So I guess as a beginner I am having trouble distinguishing the two while played out in a song when vocals are also going on. The base note thing is helping a lot in most cases.

But in one case I got it horribly wrong. It has to do with the song "Love Me Do " by Beatles.
In it I gave a lot of attention to the base note and still got it wrong. I thought the base note sequence in the intro section(and through the song's initial part) was G-F-E-G . Hence I thought the chords were G-F-Em-G . But this was way off. I checked the chords on the net and they were GGCC or something like that. I could not hear a C note in the base at all. Any ideas where I may be going wrong. Maybe I should try to look at the chord as a whole and not just the base note but in some songs the chord is very hard to hear while base note is very prominent.The harmonica being played made things a lot difficult for this particular song.

Offline mouser9169

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2013, 08:27:26 am »
 Don't put too much emphasis on the bass note - it's a helpful tool, but not an infallible guide.

Many, many chords are played with a note other than their root note played as the bass.

The Em vs C is something different - it's only a semitone, but it's an important semitone. You should really work on getting a feel for a minor chord vs. a major chord. The easiest way is to play something like E, then Em, then E, then Em - and then A, then Am, etc... until you can "feel" the difference.

Once you have that, you should usually be able to tell at least whether a chord is major or minor - even if you don't know anything else about it (there are special cases that will still trip you up from time to time).

If you can determine what key the song is in, that will help you a lot. I'll give an example from a key you're not familiar with (so you can work out the ones you are for yourself  :P ).  If I know a song is in Eb, then I'm going to expect Gm, Cm, Ab, and Bb to be played (quite possibly in that order - look at the scale degrees).

It really is a lot like solving a puzzle - the key of the piece, the melody note, the bass notes, and the chords surrounding it are all clues to what the chord might be, but you may still have a bit of work to do to puzzle out exactly what chord it is.

An extreme example would be "A Horse With No Name" by America. It's a simple two chord song (probably the easiest 'real' song to play there is). One of the chords is Em. I'll wager there are few people here who could puzzle out what that second chord is though - at least not without a lot of work (maybe even using an equalizer to isolate notes).
Mouser's Rules of Music:

1) Always Trust your Muse.
2) See Rule 1)

Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2013, 09:25:41 am »
Hi. Thanks for replying.

Ya I will have to look at not just the base note as you say.

I checked out the song Love Me Do on youtube. And it seems it has a bass guitar part to it. Which makes the bass note very prominent I guess. It would have been great had I at least got the bass notes right. But there too I got one or two wrong. It is mostly G D C G. I thought it was G F E G.  But then I guess, trying to find  a D note on normal guitar is not possible as lowest note is bass E . (I am guessing that the D C used in Bass guitar for this song are lower than the lowest E of the guitar.)

I guess it would be best for me to concentrate on getting the Transcribe course over first and the JUSTIN exercises in IM level and Beginner level. They would help me get my ears in tune. And maybe I should focus on the 25 songs suggested by Justin first.

Offline mouser9169

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2013, 11:13:11 am »
The reason you can hear that bass note is precisely because it is played so much lower than the other notes.

Otherwise they all just get muddied up in the chord (to almost everybody). The note that stands out is the one with the highest pitch, ie: the melody note. When you train your ear to hear octaves correctly you'll be able to find those low bass notes by playing the notes an octave (or more) higher in the range of the guitar.

But - that bass note is part of the chord that is being played - if it is played at the same time a guitar plays a chord.  That's how you get a chord out of a horn section - each horn blows a different note, and together they make a chord.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes. We tend to learn much more from our failures than we do from our successes.
Mouser's Rules of Music:

1) Always Trust your Muse.
2) See Rule 1)

Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2013, 01:40:23 pm »

But - that bass note is part of the chord that is being played - if it is played at the same time a guitar plays a chord.  That's how you get a chord out of a horn section - each horn blows a different note, and together they make a chord.



Ya and I got the bass notes wrong hence got the chord wrong too. The bass sequence is G D C G . And corresponding chords are G G C C . So it matches as Gmajor contains D and Cmajor contains G.

Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to following the learning curve for transcribing.

Hey by the way  , are you aware of any other such list  on the web where list of easy songs to transcribe is given . Justin's list is there and is quite good , but some of the songs I have not listened to so much.

Actually I am from India and hence I am more versed with Hindi songs. :) But the trouble is sometimes those use different scale forms i.e the Raagas. For example, one particular Raaga - i.e Raag Khamaaj is similar to the mixolydian mode.Although many of Hindi songs are based on western scales but some may be based on Raagas. And I have very little knowledge of those. :|
I am only aware of the good ol' major and minor scales and now due to Justin's courses, the Pentatonic scale.

Offline mouser9169

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2013, 02:41:29 pm »
A lot of eastern music - particularly Arabic but quite possible Indian as well is impossible to transcribe exactly onto a fretted guitar or a piano. It's not just that the scale is different, but the intervals between the notes. In "Western" music, all the notes of the chromatic scale (all the notes, basically) are separated by one semitone. In Eastern music some notes are closer than that, or are 1 1/2 times that, so they fall 'between the cracks' of the piano keys, so to speak.

You can play them (if you're skilled enough) on an instrument like an upright or fretless bass - or even slide trombone come to think of it.
Mouser's Rules of Music:

1) Always Trust your Muse.
2) See Rule 1)

Offline justinguitar

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2013, 03:30:24 pm »
@mouser9169

Yes... unless you are Jeff Beck!!

Check out his cover of the track Nadia... and then hear check out the original by Nitin Sawnhey!! incredible.
"You can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room." Dr. Seuss

Offline mouser9169

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2013, 05:16:49 pm »
@mouser9169

Yes... unless you are Jeff Beck!!

Check out his cover of the track Nadia... and then hear check out the original by Nitin Sawnhey!! incredible.

That man has been blowing my mind for years now.

I don't know what the Yardbirds put in their water, but I wish they'd bottle the stuff  8)
Mouser's Rules of Music:

1) Always Trust your Muse.
2) See Rule 1)

Nikhil

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2013, 06:01:56 pm »
A lot of eastern music - particularly Arabic but quite possible Indian as well is impossible to transcribe exactly onto a fretted guitar or a piano. It's not just that the scale is different, but the intervals between the notes. In "Western" music, all the notes of the chromatic scale (all the notes, basically) are separated by one semitone. In Eastern music some notes are closer than that, or are 1 1/2 times that, so they fall 'between the cracks' of the piano keys, so to speak.

You can play them (if you're skilled enough) on an instrument like an upright or fretless bass - or even slide trombone come to think of it.

Ya that is particularly true of Indian classical music. But a lot of popular Indian music is based on western scales. Of course  many songs could be classified as fusion.

I tried transcribing some of the Indian songs and by instinct had to make use of a slide which returns to the original note : - something like 3\5/3 . Of course I couldn't do all the improvisations used by the vocalist,  only the simpler ones. :)

There are 2-3 videos of guys playing out Ragas on youtube. One or two have shown how they do it too. But instruction on Indian classical music is hard to find on the net. Nothing comes close to the comprehensive  website  by Justin.

I think the tones which are closer than 1 semitone are called microtones (I guess it is a misnomer as micro is no way the same as half  :) )  . Here's what the good ol' wikipedia has to say on microtones and Indian classical music's use of it. :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aruti_(music)#Ancient_period:_Grama_system
Here is a typical Indian classical music song :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqmOaQSPDA . Notice the awesome 'vibratos' used by the first vocalist. I guess such a song would be immensely difficult to transcribe, if not impossible. (Note , the guys acting are not the ones singing, the singing is done by Playback singers.)

I checked out the Jeff Beck performance .It is awesome.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:18:47 am by Nikhil »

reevearch

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2013, 05:34:33 pm »
Has anyone tried the Amazing Slow Downer app?  I like the idea of being able to work from my iPhone or iPod rather than just my desktop.  Or is Transcribe definitely worth being tied to the desk?
Thanks

Offline shadowscott007

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Re: TR-003 • Beginners Transcribing Hints
« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2013, 12:56:59 am »
I have been using amazing slow downer for years.  I love it.

I tried transcribe but went back to amazing.  But one tends to like what one is used to, and i found that the more advanced features in transcribe made it seem harder to use.  Slow Downer is a cleaner simpler interface but doesn't have tome of the more advanced functions that i wouldn't use or couldn't figure out how to use.

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