Author Topic: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips  (Read 26667 times)

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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2020, 10:24:33 am »
@sairfingers, @Toby

Just a little reminder of this thread ... triads, chord tones, scales, caged shapes, improv etc.

https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=44991.0

Hey a lot has happened since March last year  ;D a year older and more forgetful for sure and too many distractions. Very grateful as it was that kind of direction I was heading. Work on my fingers knowing the triad shapes/positions/inversions intuitively and not just my mental image of yellow box scales !! Then apply that to soloing/impro being the next stage.

Thanks for the nudge Richard, looks like a lot has been added to it since I last dipped my toe in. So will settle down for a long read later. But at least now I have bookmarked the thread. 

Cheers

Toby
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2020, 03:53:51 pm »
Thanks Toby and Richard for all the info and links. Much appreciated. A bit of overload for me at the moment as I’ve only just started trying out triads. I’m trying to fit some of the easier ones into my songs and alternate open chords, barre chords and triads into them. It’s good fun, great practice and I can enjoy playing songs at the same time which is what I like best.

I’ll get back to your stuff once I’m a bit more confident about the basics. One of the things I’m finding difficult is muting the unwanted strings. Justin says to use the edge/heel of your strumming hand but it’s hard to do that and strum at the same time.

Gordon
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2020, 05:06:45 pm »
Lightbulb 💡 moment. The Major triad 1 is simply the high 3 strings of the equivalent barre chord!
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Online stitch101

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2020, 05:29:51 pm »
All triads are 3 strings of a barre chord. If you look at the B G and D strings of an
A chord that is the A shaped triad on those 3.strings.
This is what the whole CAGED system is.
It works with every barre chord anywhere on the neck.

I recommed you start with the E and A shaped barre chords first on the e B and G
Strings. Double stops work the same way. If you go back to Closes post on double
stop thirds and add the 5th you will have triads.

Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2020, 10:06:28 pm »
Thanks stitch. This is all fascinating stuff!
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2020, 01:35:31 pm »
This has really shown up the weaknesses in my fretboard knowledge. Strings 1,5,6 are perfect due to my E and A barre chord knowledge, however strings 2,3,4 are not so good!

On the positive side, learning to play triad shapes is a fun way to learn the fretboard notes. I’ve got Justin’s fretboard note trainer app which is good, but I find it hard to visually and mentally translate the small screen fretboard to the full size thing when playing.
The different fretboard markings on my acoustic and electric don’t help either although I know I should only be looking at the little markers on the top edge which are the same.
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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2020, 11:31:53 pm »
Sairfingers

If you know the theory behind the chords and can find the root note its not that difficult. I'll dig out some diagrams tomorrow as its getting late but knowing the relative position of chord intervals makes things so much easier. Many moons ago Stitch put up some scale boxes from Fretjam.com that showed the CAGED scales in INTERVALs not the usual "what fingers to use" that is the common depiction of scales. And this really opened my eyes. And if I know the theory behind a chord and which intervals are needed to construct it I can easily visualise where they are.

So if you know a major chord is I III V or a minor is I IIIB V, those interval diagrams show that V is always on top of the I/Root and III is always 1 string down one fret back (and the IV is always below the I/root great for 12BB ie equals from root drop a string in same fret for IV then go up two frets/two semi tones for V)) so therefore for minors IIIB is one down two back. Ok you have to adjust for the B string but knowing where there intervals are relative to the root makes finding chords so much easier.

If you understand that theoretical approach to chord construction the Stitch Yellow Box diagrams I bang on about make it so much easier to see and understand how triads are constructed across any group of three strings. And across more than 3 strings for open triads.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2020, 08:18:43 am »
Gordon hope this help you visualise the triads. Although this is just the E shape major scale, the positional relationship applies to the other 4 shapes.

https://imgur.com/a/i7p3rFZ
Here since Mar 2013 Completed BC, RUST 1 & 2, IM, MTMS Still on Blues Rhythm and Blues Lead
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2020, 09:13:45 am »
Thanks Toby, that diagram is really helpful. I’m making some progress with triads and like everything else, it’s more practice and study that’s required!

The thing I’m not so keen on at the moment is mixing them in with barre and open chords in songs. I’ve been trying this (and of course it’s a good way to learn triads and their relationship) but because they are played on 3 strings they sound ‘thin’ compared to the other chords. I suppose they should really be played as a second guitar along with another guitar playing full chords and the overall effect would be good.
My project this week is to create some some full chord progression loops and then play along using triads.

As an aside, I hope all good with you over in France. We normally take our caravan to France for 3 or 4 weeks in the summer. Not this year! Hopefully by next year things will be back to normal.

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Online stitch101

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2020, 04:04:32 pm »
Triads and double stops arebest used as fills and rhythm/lead playing.
Margaritaville is a good example of triads. Drift Away is a good example of
double stops.
Doing a loop of a song is a great Idea to practice both triads and double stops.
I keep using both as an example because they are the same shape and are used
in pretty much the same way.

Once you see how scales, chords, diads, triads, double stops all are smaller versions
of each other thing open up all over the neck.

Offline CT

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2020, 04:17:31 pm »
This has really shown up the weaknesses in my fretboard knowledge. Strings 1,5,6 are perfect due to my E and A barre chord knowledge, however strings 2,3,4 are not so good!

On the positive side, learning to play triad shapes is a fun way to learn the fretboard notes. I’ve got Justin’s fretboard note trainer app which is good, but I find it hard to visually and mentally translate the small screen fretboard to the full size thing when playing.
The different fretboard markings on my acoustic and electric don’t help either although I know I should only be looking at the little markers on the top edge which are the same.
Continue on with whatever courseware you are using now if it is working for you. There are a couple of 5-10 minute games that I play to stay fresh on the fret board:
1. Find all the notes: Pick a note and then locate and play every instance of that note on the fret board.
2. Loop a progression: Lay down a chord or progression in the looper and now play as many chord voices, triads, etc, as you can as an accompaniment.
Note: #1 helps with #2 and opens up scales and just about everything else. Once you know the notes you can practically build the triads, scales, etc, that go along with them on the fly. It doesn't come overnight.

Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2020, 10:45:23 am »
Thanks for all your input on this subject guys, much appreciated.

I’ve just stumbled on another way of learning fretboard notes (this may be obvious to everyone else but I hadn’t thought of it). If I leave my clip on tuner on the guitar while playing, I can play an individual note and a glance at the tuner tells me if I’m correct. Also picking out the individual notes in chords the tuner identifies the notes within that chord.
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2020, 05:31:31 pm »
Hi guys
I’ve been working on my triads and now have the majors and minors with the root note on strings 1,2,3 down. Would it be a worthwhile exercise to find the 7th and minor 7ths? Justin doesn’t mention those in the book. Or do these chords not exist in the triad world?
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Offline adi_mrok

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2020, 05:37:30 pm »
Hi sairfingers, not sure if you have a subscription but in PMT there is a chapter where you are including 7ths, b7ths etc and it's called by Justin quadads. I think it's one of the last chapters in his PMT.

Found it:

https://www.justinguitar.com/modules/music-theory-5-2-chord-study

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« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 07:01:27 pm by adi_mrok »

Online stitch101

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2020, 05:57:29 pm »
Hi guys
I’ve been working on my triads and now have the majors and minors with the root note on strings 1,2,3 down. Would it be a worthwhile exercise to find the 7th and minor 7ths? Justin doesn’t mention those in the book. Or do these chords not exist in the triad world?

Triad means 3 or 3 notes. You can play 3 note 7th chords but you have to drop the 5th.
So R 3 7.  C7 is an example of a 7th chord with no 5th.  R 3 7 R so if you drop one of
the roots you'd have a 3 note 7th chord.
Quadads are a little more usefull but you already know most of them if you can play
Barre chords.

Offline close2u

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2020, 07:56:07 pm »
Hi guys
I’ve been working on my triads and now have the majors and minors with the root note on strings 1,2,3 down.
Good stuff Gordon.
When you say you have them down, can you, say, play songs where you substitute your known open and barre chord shapes for triads instead? In one place on the neck only? Moving laterally along the neck? Can you play a harmonised major scale in triad-chord form? In different keys?

Quote
Would it be a worthwhile exercise to find the 7th and minor 7ths? Justin doesn’t mention those in the book. Or do these chords not exist in the triad world?

Triads are 1, 3, 5 and 1, b3, 5.

Major 7ths, minor 7ths and dominant 7ths are four note chords. SO trying to apply the framework of triads to them is a mis-step.

When you want to venture that path, you really need to start exploring arpeggios and their various shapes played as single note runs - a bit like you may learn scale shapes played as sequential single notes.

Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2020, 11:43:57 pm »
Good stuff Gordon.
When you say you have them down, can you, say, play songs where you substitute your known open and barre chord shapes for triads instead? In one place on the neck only? Moving laterally along the neck? Can you play a harmonised major scale in triad-chord form? In different keys?
Hi Richard and stitch and adi.
I can substitute open and barre chords in songs with triads and play each triad in three different places up and down the neck using the three different shapes based on the root note on strings 1,2,3. My speed of change is a different matter, I’m still very slow have to think hard and am still practising this. 
I have no clue what a harmonised major scale in triad chord form is!

I’m pleased I don’t have to look for the 7ths etc. What I’m doing at the moment is enough!

Thanks Guys
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Offline adi_mrok

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2020, 12:35:57 am »
I think your next step would be to find a song where triads are used so you can practice your changes and make good use of them. I recommend song called Anywhere by Passenger, fantastic example of triads altough a bit tricky with the speed and resiliance to repeat it over and over again.

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Offline close2u

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2020, 08:08:39 am »
... I have no clue what a harmonised major scale in triad chord form is! ...

For example ...

Key of C

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C played in ascending / descending triads.

Key of G

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim, G played in ascending / descending triads.


Once you have these triads formed and connected, start turning them into exercises involving different picking patterns, dynamic emphasis etc.

Try to always be aware of where the root note is.
Try to be aware of which of the 1st, 3rd or 5th you are starting a pattern on.

Have fun.

Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2020, 09:08:13 am »
I recommend song called Anywhere by Passenger, fantastic example of triads altough a bit tricky with the speed and resiliance to repeat it over and over again.
Hi adi, and thanks for the recommendation. I don’t know that song but will look it up.
Hi sairfingers, not sure if you have a subscription but in PMT there is a chapter where you are including 7ths, b7ths etc and it's called by Justin quadads. I think it's one of the last chapters in his PMT.
I haven’t bought Justin’s PMT so can’t access the link you’ve given me. However I’m sure there will be something else out there on the web about quadads.
Quadads are a little more usefull but you already know most of them if you can play
Barre chords.
Now that’s a positive thought stitch. Something I already know! Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 09:29:50 am by sairfingers »
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Offline DarrellW

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2020, 09:35:30 am »
There’s triads used in Stairway to heaven as well, it would also be a really good one to stretch your finger style skills! I’m on the case with it myself (still 😂).
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2020, 09:43:55 am »
Richard. Thanks for the explanation of a harmonised scale, glad it’s not as terrifying as it sounds! I’ll include this in my practice and will use it as an additional way to practice barre chords too.
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Offline sairfingers

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2020, 09:45:59 am »
There’s triads used in Stairway to heaven as well.....
Now that’s a song I know! I’m off to look up the chords on the web. 👍
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Offline tobyjenner

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2020, 10:34:00 am »
Gordon

I've been working on the G B e triads for a few weeks now and I use an exercise in the Key of A. I chose A because the lowest A starts on the 2nd fret (G string), so I can comfortably work all the way up to the A on the 14th fret. So when I hit the Bdim in position I go to the A at the next octave and repeat.

I put this A Major triad diagram together using Fretjam as the source, you may find it useful.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DKud0JYfcXwimoyPteq9Fv6YAQQZsaMZ/view?usp=sharing

I can pretty much get from 2nd to 14th without too many fumbles from memory but struggle going back from the bridge to the neck but that's work in progress.

I like you have yet to apply it to songs but I have a project on the go, where one of the guitar parts has a picked triad section. But in the mean time I have added a little exercise playing some common progressions, so I can work in better changes, for example I IV V,  I V vi VI (using the progression Richard used in his thread on targeting chord tones for lead play). In fact once my changes are better, I can use the backing tracks he provided for the lead development and play the triads along with the track.

Hope any of this helps.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline DarrellW

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Re: IM-151 • Triad Chord Grips
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2020, 11:24:19 am »
Now that’s a song I know! I’m off to look up the chords on the web. 👍
Follow the series Justin has already done!
https://www.justinguitar.com/songs/led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-1-6-chords-tabs-guitar-lesson-st-314
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