Author Topic: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation  (Read 23927 times)

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Offline justinguitar

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 05:05:13 pm by justinguitar »
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Offline marsbar

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 03:41:44 pm »
Can someone help me understand what is going on with the scale pattern diagram in this lesson?  It is labeled as being an E minor, but to me it looks like the notes that would be in a G scale.  What am I missing?

Thanks,

Mark

Offline Cataract

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 03:49:20 pm »
As far as I know Eminor = Gmajor. As well as Am = Cmaj, and so on.

Offline stitch101

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 03:56:36 pm »
Can someone help me understand what is going on with the scale pattern diagram in this lesson?  It is labeled as being an E minor, but to me it looks like the notes that would be in a G scale.  What am I missing?

Thanks,

Mark


E minor is the relative minor the G major. It's the 6th interval in the G major scale. Same notes different root.

Offline shadowscott007

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 05:14:23 pm »
I think the OP asked the wrong question... the scale is labeled E (Major).

So Justin is indeed teaching the G major scale.  The dots on the neck are the G major scale.

But the SHAPE of the scale is an E SHAPE.  Why?  Good question.  Look at the red dots.  Those red dots are a G major chord.  It is an E SHAPE G chord. 

So that scale shape regardless of the actual key is referred to as the E Major Scale Shape.

Shadow

Edit:  Yeah, so the previous answers were completely true and accurate.
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 08:24:31 am »
Guy can I just double check I've got my understanding right on something. I'm doing quite a bit of practice around improvising and thought I'd download some additional backing tracks in different keys. I happened on an Am backing track which I liked...then wondered what major scale do I play over this?

I think I've found the answer (its C Major Scale) through this lesson >> http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-130-DemystifyMinors.php under the classical or "pure" minor scale but wanted to make sure I hadn't misunderstood.

So in essence my understanding is that if I want to find and play the right major scale over a minor backing track then I use the method describe in above lesson i.e. place my first finger on the root note of the thickest string e.g. in above case it would be A at 5th fret then step up three semi tones or frets (Bb, B, C) which will leave me on C indicating the major relative to A pure minor.

I know in this case I'm moving outside of the IM but occasionally you can't help but wanting to explore some things a little earlier.
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Offline stitch101

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 08:54:14 am »
First off theory is not my strong suit so don't take this as writen in stone.

What you are asking is what major scale to play over a minor chord. In theory what you said
is correct if you play the scale around the tonal center of C .  But seeing that the backing track is
in Am why not just play the Am scale? It has the same notes as C major but the tonal center is
A so you're not trying to rethink the scale in a different key.

Online tobyjenner

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 10:01:01 am »
Rossco

Been going there myself, so this may be useful for you !



You can use the fret walk to get there or remember the relative minor is the 6th interval of the major or the relative major is the 3rd of the minor. C/Am maj/min is the easy one as there's no sharps or flats  :)

Just to add to your repertoire you could us the C maj pent as well just drop the 4th and 7th from the Major, as in the E shape below.


Stitch - those yellow boxes still helping man !!

Rossco if you've not sussed out those little interval triangles (1 3 4 and 5 7 1) they can sound really cool. Just slide up/down from 4 to 5 or 7 to 6 both ways (just hoof it up a fret on the B string though).  Enjoy the improing, I'm focusing on 1/16th accents this week while I get into a groove again and its doing my head in with off beat strums and trying to foot tap  >:(

Cheers

Toby
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 10:06:05 am »
Thanks for the reply stitch. I guess one of the reasons I ask is that your suggestion was my initial approach but playing the maj scale in A didn't seem to sound "right" whereas C sounds much better. I suspect I've got a bit (plenty) of learning to do before I understand it more fully so I'm not going to labour on it but just thought I'd float the question.
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 10:07:08 am »
Cheers Toby our posts overlapped.
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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 10:20:04 am »
Rossco

Those box/interval diagrams are from www.fretjam.com and its been really useful when stitch has posted them here. I've found the site really helpful to support Justin's courses and signed up for a free Fretboard Navigation lesson, where you get a new lesson link via mail every few days. That really helped understanding whats where on the neck and starts making CAGED make sense !! At the end of the course I got prompted to look at the app GuitarNotesMaster and that's really helped my theory and kept me sane while the family was here (working on augmented / diminished intervals at the moment). It was only $39 (£25) but has a mass of info, theoretical exercises and practical hands on exercises as well. Money well spent I think, as it really does underpin the course work from Justin. Here's the official site http://www.guitarnotesmaster.com/Default.cshtml if you're interested.

Cheers

Toby
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 10:34:42 am »
A natural minor and C have the same key signature, no sharps or flats.  The notes are the same.

But they have a different key center A versus C.  The sound is different, A is home versus C.

One of the more subtle ideas to get your head around.

Shadow

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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2015, 10:35:31 am »
Great Toby I will definitely take a look at those. I had to admit I need to work a bit more on the theory side of things. As I'm getting more into IM and looking beyond it a little it feels like I don't quite have a full grasp on things. I'm sort of assuming that if I just keep working through the IM (and probably then onto the Blues rhythm) things will naturally make sense but at the moment I haven't even looked at CAGED etc.

I've got the practical music theory from Justin so will plough on with that as well.
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2015, 10:36:44 am »
Shadow ah I just sort reached that conclusion from the diagram Toby put up. Same notes but different starting - home - position. Thanks for insight.
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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2015, 05:11:23 pm »
A natural minor and C have the same key signature, no sharps or flats.  The notes are the same.

But they have a different key center A versus C.  The sound is different, A is home versus C.

One of the more subtle ideas to get your head around.

Shadow

Shadow

Thanks also from me as it puts things into perspective. So I spent the afternoon dipping into explanations on Tonal Centre's and I guess at the end of the day that just means the tonic or root (be that the major or minor).

But what I can now see is that if I play a C major scale over an Amin song, when I'm about to resolve and go to the C root of the major scale it sounds pants. So where I should be going is to the 6th and hit the A which is the 'tonal centre' of the songs key. So if I'm looking to resolve on a "7th" I'm thinking I should be aiming for a augmented 5th / G# ?

Certainly explains that even after I sort clarification over the maj/min relations a few months back my impros still sounded pants, when I played one over the other. And I was obviously just lucky when it sounded resolved!

Cheers

Toby
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Offline stitch101

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2015, 07:00:07 pm »
Toby (shadow will correct me if I'm wrong)
When you're playing C major scale over Am the C(root in CM) is the b3rd in Am.
This is where you get the minor sound from. If you play the C note i  the context of
a Major or Root context it will clash with the minor feel of the A minor. This can be
good thing if you use it as a passing note for tention but won't resolve or finish a lick.
if you use the b3rd and 3rd of the majoe scale you are in a sence using the b5 and 5
of the minor scale targeting these notes will give you a blues or minor feel but if you
play them in a major context it will give you a country feel.
So don't think of the tonal center so a note think of it more as a feeling major or minor

Hope this all makes sence I'm not as good at explaining this as Shodow is. So Shadow
please correct me if I'm off track.

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2015, 08:12:10 pm »
Stitch

Had to read that several times but I get where your coming from but I think I'll need to sit down with the guitar and hear it to appreciate it fully. Gave it a quick try but need to clear my head as I've just spent about 45 mins playing (???) 1/16th accents off beat, so I'm slightly frazzled at the moment. Will come back on this if its not clear to me but cheers (might need some yellow box assistance to see it before I play it , so I'll look at my diagrams first ;) )

Cheers

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2015, 11:38:55 pm »
Withdrawn comment as diagram was incorrect, sorry :(
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2015, 12:31:41 am »
Sooo much depends on the particulars of the backing track...  I having a hard time getting my head around how to respond.

Anything I can think to say makes it seem more difficult than it is, or is trite and unhelpful.

Trite:  In A natural minor, you are playing the C major scale but thinking A. 

More complicated than it is:  As the chords are flying by a note that sounded nice and resolved in the last measure might become the notes that wanna go somewhere in this measure.

How I approached it (I cheated) is from a pentatonic perspective.  So an A natural minor backing track means I start with the Am pentatonic and add the B F in.  That gives me all the C major scale shapes, but my head is in Am.

That isn't the way Justin recommends doing it... this is my perception or opinion, whatever.  But I think he wants you to approach it more from a musician perspective.  Know the scale for sure and get used to the sounds of the notes over the progression and make melodies.  It isn't about uber jamming steve vai Joe satriani stuff early on although you will get there.

His way is probably superior.

My way is all about a guitarist wanting to be able to take a solo and make it more interesting by being able to use some of the diatonic notes - breaking out of the pentatonic.  Not bad, but narrower...

His way is becoming a musician who plays guitar which is broader, encompasses my little section of the pie and goes beyond it.

So if I put on my Justin hat, I would say pick a position to play in and just work the scale, no flash, just get used to the notes and the progression, simple melody think singing more than soloing.  What notes sound good where... just get used to it... listen to the bad ones... maybe hang onto them until the progression moves to a spot where all of a sudden it becomes the a good one... maybe actually sing the notes as you are playing them...

Wow sound pompous, which isn't what I was after...

Shadow
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2015, 08:52:38 am »
Guys thanks for your help. The last 3-4 posts didn't mean so much but just the info you've provided makes things clear enough for me for now AND gives me a bit more insight for when I'm further down the learning path.
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Offline justinguitar

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2015, 09:36:23 am »
@Shadow and OP

Your approach of adding in notes to the Pentatonic is how I teach using 'dorian' notes in the blues and it applies in many situations. It's often the best way.

Especially you will often find that a minor key might be dorian or natural (aeloian) and the easiest way is to try the notes. That is in Am, try the notes F and F# and see which work. Once you got that down you'll know are you working in G maj or C Maj and you're off to explore other patterns or whatever :) The B will work in most circumstances as the Bb is a b9 note and doesn't work in many situations.

Hope that helps!

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2015, 08:16:22 pm »
Reading back through the supporting notes for this lessons, it sounds like for now it's best to stick with the basic major scale (E shape) pattern and get a feel for what works and what doesn't, so I'll forget about adding extra notes for now and not muddy the waters.

Safe to say that playing the major scale over a song/track in the relative minor key is ok, as long as you keep in mind the key the song and not the scale your playing. I've just got to resist the urge to start straying out of that box until I hit the Blues course!

I know this was Rossco's query but its helped me a lot (I hope), so thanks Justin, Shadow and Stitch  8)
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2015, 03:17:59 pm »
This thread stuck with me.  So so I rewatched the subject lesson, read through all the accompanying text on the lesson page, and reread the recent discourse in the thread.  At this point i suggest you go watch and read the lesson page.  I put this under Justin's "explore" category from the vid.

Then I sat down with my guitar yesterday.  And went through the following.  I am trying to be as theory free as possible here.

There are 6 basic major and minor triads you can harmonize from the G major scale.  G Am Bm C D Em.  So by definition the G major scale works over those chords.

I took the first position G major scale (G on the 3rd fret 6th string) and went through the chords one at a time.  Strum chord, noodle a short phrase, strum chord, noodle short phrase.  Spend at least 10 minutes doing that with each of the 6 chords.  Really listen, really really listen.  I did that for all the chords.  Like all morning.  Some times i would let myself chase a riff; chord riff chord riff repeat.

Strctly those chords, strictly that scale, strictly that position.  Mostly open chords. 

Then let myself strum a chord and then come back to a different chord after each noodle or maybe the same chord.  One strum on each chord.

Tried to immerse myself in the scale and the chords from the scale.

Then I tried pairings of specific chords; G Em or Em G one strum each noodle short phrase... C and Am... D and Bm... those work  particularly nice for reasons i won't get into... Am to Bm... whatever you want.

The point being is that the scale works over all the chords that can be harmonized from that scale.  And you while you can think your way to it, i think this freeform excercise is a bunch of fun, is creative, gets your ears and fingers working together, bypasses the theory side.

I am not saying this will be high art, but i bet you will stumble on a lot of cool tidbits.  I spent some time trying to land on horrible notes, but ya know what?  When I went to the chord strum often the tension of that horrible note was resolved and I'll be damned if it didn't sound like music.

Because I am who I am there are lots of "theoretical observations" one could make related to this excercise and I made them.  But really they just get in the way at this point.

I am considering making a few soundclouds of this idea and if i do i may toss in some of those theoretical observations.  But as much fun as i had doing it, i imagine listening to this free form stream of consciousness exploration of a scale and its triads would be about as much fun as... doing something not fun...

Strictly one scale, strictly one position, strictly those 6 chords, keep it simple, listening HARD... everything else is strictly not strict.

Shadow
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Offline Rossco01

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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2015, 03:30:15 pm »
I have to admit Shadow thats how ive been approaching it just freeforming position one of maj scale using differeng backing tracks or appropriate chords.... that is strictly speaking all Justin suggests at this point.
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Re: IM-123 • Major Scale Pattern 1 - Basic Improvisation
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2015, 08:21:59 pm »

Safe to say that playing the major scale over a song/track in the relative minor key is ok, as long as you keep in mind the key the song and not the scale your playing. I've just got to resist the urge to start straying out of that box until I hit the Blues course!

Shadow

As far as THIS lessons is concerned I recant what I said last night :(

Thanks for taking the time and effort to explore this lesson and clarifying its essence. Reading your post and the re-visiting again myself, you are spot on. Its ALL about the position 1 G scale and nothing else.

I along with others I suspected are suckered into those other Keys, when they down load the other Jam Major tracks Justin refers to, of course once you've played a few your hooked and looking for all sorts to play over. Me I was off down that Southern Rock road. Anyways tonight back to basics and just that one backing track and that ONE scale.

I for one would be interested to listen to anything you upload to soundcloud on this session.

Many thanks again ;)

Cheers

Toby
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