Author Topic: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit  (Read 6279 times)

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Offline LievenDV

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2011, 11:10:23 am »
Alrighty, I'll take that advice for sure.  Haven't heard back from Jim but it's still early yet, somehow however I feel that the website is putting people off.  Too much self-promotion or something, not low-key enough.  So we're gonna redesign the web page. 

From a marketeer to an inventor:

it's not a matter self promotion it's a matter of people thinking "meh?".
they don't know what it is and they don't hear it or don't grasp it.

It just doesn't have the appeal it needs to have.
The information is there but the gift isn't wrapped
it's like a powerful but energy efficient engine in a car without the sleek and attractive bodywork.
An interesting technology that just doesn't sell.

The basic Marketing mix = the 4 P's
Product: What is it?
Place: online; a good place for you to start as small sites need small upkeep
Price: what does it cost and how does it compare to similar products?
Promotion: what we are working on right now

A product exists in 3 layers.
- the basic product, as it is, what is does, how it looks like. this is what you are showing on a boring site.
- the extended product; the basic product + packaging, branding, service and guarantee+warranty and whatnot
- the total product: the extended product + emotions, experession, value added by client.

I see stuff about a "basic product" ok.. now try to add some of the elements of the 2 more complete levels too

You can take the marketing mix further with extra "P's"
the extra's are People, proces, presentation,....


Promtion:

SHOW! TELL! you need to improve graphics and sound quality.
Redesign: ok; keep in mind you have to be more commercial instead of less self-promotion.
WARM UP the non-believer; wrap up the interested innovating guitarist.

let me quote Satriani: "where are rock guitar players being celebrated for being innovative? almost nowhere" (from an interview in the latest issue of Guitar Player magazine)

all must start with crystal clear Audio and video examples!
Get the sound quality right, try to get some decent lighting and make sure you use proper power outlets to keep the buzz away.

I took the time to figure it out but a lot of people are more lazy when it comes to that. You have to grab them from the first 15 seconds... when you get their attention; they're easier to lead.

I believe that is does SOMETHING but I'm still not convinced of WHAT IS DOES EXACTLY.
get that figured out ASAP.
I didn't hear the extra harmonics etc ..why is that? answer the why? and fix that!
Did this fix the perception? no? why is that? lead the answer lead to new questions to lift up the quality of your "marketing". socratic method! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

when you got high quality examples and demo's; send Satriani a message ;) ask him what he thinks and perhaps he'll demo with you? :) (no really, it doesn't hurt to try)

If you want this to catch on, you'll have to invest some time and a bit of cash.
Be creative; you're an inventor; don't spend your cash on overproducing the video or the site. you just need to get in touch with the right people to set you on your way. You mentioned that "money's too tight to mention".
Well than gather/convince more friends. convince them of your idea and they will help... make sure to reward them afterwards of course.

In the beginning they are people with the same idea, willing to invest a lot of time and a bit of money... if the teamworks does what it needs to do; they'll become business partners; earning their share for launching what you would naver could have done alone if you have no start capital.
Never forget that time=money, especially in your sitatuation. you can save money by investing more time; you just need to be creative to find those ways

now that I mention it... Did you think of a business plan yet? perhaps al ittle early but never to early to know the rough path you want to take this.
my band: fb: Point Fifty | Instagram: Point Fifty

Offline agordon

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 06:07:37 pm »
Inventor - Im in the US and would consider paying shipping to try it out.  I would like to see some videos first too.  Im in Dallas, TX and have a few friends I can have try it out.  Where are you at in the US?
Guitars: Taylor 314CE, Guild D50 Dreadnought, Alvarez RD8, Gibson LP Std. Trad. Pro, Warmoth Custom Strat, MIA Strat, MIM Tele, PRS SE Singlecut
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Effects: Line6 JM4, Vox Tonelab ST

steveo2

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 06:38:51 pm »
Florida is the location.
Yeah the first few second has to be a grabber.
I have some very nice starts to compare it too I have 9.
Most are high dollar, some are not all sound good.
I am trying to get my studio back going.
Some thing kind of get lost in recording, My ear can tell an open string from a fretted one.

If you made a record playing something other than a E chord I did not hear it.
In your web design, remember your trying to show something.
To my ears your invention did not have the bass that the other pick-up had.
I also though the guitar was a little out of tune.
To sell me one you would have to demo that when I whack it,(the string)
The bass will jump out, I play more of a blues, country, pop stuff so some clean and a little dirty is more for me.

You need good playing and a comparison of the same lick.
This and the res button with the words simple secrets to your own tone would catch a few people.
There are many great players on youtube,
Again best of luck.
Steveo

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2011, 07:06:08 pm »
Wow, lots of fantastic advice, straight from education and experience too!  I will do my best to BEGIN efforts toward meeting all those goals, however I am overwhelmed with the task and I wonder if it is best to open things up to a person who would like to jump on board in a business development capacity. 

As an amateur inventor, i'm aware enough to know my own limitations.  Stuff like characterizing electronically what we really have here I can do.  Making it appeal to a specific audience in a demo, honestly I can not do that very well. 

agordon, yes I'm in Hollywood Florida which is probably close enough to Dallas TX to make shipping be tolerable.  I'll guess $100+ but hey, maybe it will be worth it to you in some way and maybe I can pay part of shipping also.  I like to ship UPS.  Please send personal info via email, i'm at [email protected]

As to the actual sound that the invention produces, well, it varies according to magnet position.  In the current configuration I have it set up for large low-harmonic gain in the lower two strings, but that is at expense of some gain in the upper harmonics.  You see, those magnets not only boost signal (well, create signal at all), but they also interact with the node positions as well.  One patent recommended a single magnet array of greater strength, which is a good compromise if I were to purchase different magnets or build another guitar. 

Also it is important to note that this first guitar has a transformer to boost the signal from the string level to the amplifier level.  We have since learned that using an electronic circuit would do the job better with far wider frequency response and produce much better harmonic content.  So it's good but it's gonna get better. 

My partner in this project is a guy in Sweden who goes by Doctor Justice, and we're splitting it 50/50 which is no big secret so I'm sure it's OK to mention that.  If someone wants to come on-board in a business development capacity we could easily make that 1/3 each or something like that.  Testing and video production probably deserves a small amount of ownership as well, we can all talk about financials in the event that others do in fact jump on-board. 

Also please forgive me if I have not addressed all points mentioned, you are all so kind in offering genuine quality advice and lots of it that I must now go back and re-read, process, and understand some more.  Maybe what I need to do next is come up with an outline of "Sage Wisdom" as applied to this project at this time to act as reminder and focal point.  Also a "to do" list for myself seems important. 

Thanks for your participation in this thread, you're giving me motivation! 

Les

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 07:14:12 pm »
Oh, silly me - did I ever mention that I do internet radio?  I can connect to a private port on our server and you can visit our chatroom or call on the telephone or whatever to establish a communications link.  Then I can power up the guitar and try to "be your fingers" and play a few simple things for whoever here wants to listen. 

Actually it can be done on the public or the private port, and the public port is on iTunes radio so if we broadcast on the public port it would be easy for folks to tune in. 

Maybe we should schedule an audio event so everyone can hear the real deal before proceeding with shipping or tentative commitments or whatever?  Just let me know. 

Les

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2011, 04:16:06 am »
Hmmm, someone mentioned something about not hearing more harmonic content from the invention, so i went out and got some nice software test equipment called Electroacoustic Toolbox.  It is a demo of a $500 package and gives a good picture of what's coming into the sound card.  After playing around with it for a while I found the following:

1. There are neither more nor fewer harmonics with the invention. 

2. There is an initial surge of sound intensity from the factory pickups when plucked with the tip of a flat pick, while the invention does not have nearly as large of a surge. 

3. The factory pickups have cross-modulation products while the invention does not have cross-modulation products. 

In addition there are differences in the weighting of the harmonics.  Also I was testing the invention with a certain magnet arrangement and the factory pickups with a certain switch position, so results could vary with different setups on either pickup type. 

So I now feel that the improved sound, or different sound I should say, is due to onset transient and cross-modulation products (if that's really the best term for what I observed).  The onset transient is probably due to the self-inductance of the factory pickup, V=Ldi/dt, so when induced current changes quickly, voltage changes quickly.  The cross-modulation products as I call them are spectral peaks that occur to either side of an actual harmonic peak.  In other words, they are unwanted discordant frequencies that are embedded into the original signal. 

I also now realize that the method of using only one guitar is not really isolating the two pickups enough because the invention magnets may be affecting the operation of the factory pickups, and the factory pickup windings may be affecting the invention.  So I'll eventually need to test with two separate guitars. 

What is your perspective on these aspects of the audio quality of one pickup versus the other? 

Les

Offline TB-AV

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2011, 05:04:58 am »
Quote
What is your perspective on these aspects of the audio quality of one pickup versus the other?

I prefer the factory pickup.

Quote
In other words, they are unwanted discordant frequencies that are embedded into the original signal. 

They are only unwanted if you are trying to design some sort of hifi pickup.

Many if not most guitar players like that rich harmonic activity.

That's what I couldn't understand you were saying your pickup had more harmonics but it seemed the opposite to me. I thought maybe I was mis-understanding which was which.

To be clear, I like the second example and hear it as more harmonically rich.

I hear the first example in the pairs to have a more balanced harmonic content with no specific character. The factory pickup has it's own character or sonic spectrum as you mention shaped to an extent by the attack and in my opinion made even better by the added harmonics.

I'm not knocking your setup, that's just what I hear.
Gone

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2011, 06:24:12 am »
OK, thanks for your straightforwardness, TB-AV... would you like that rich quality enhanced?  Would you like it adjustable?  Would you like the spectrum of it modifiable in certain ways? 

I guess we need an audio expert to help us with terminology and such, but I'm fairly sure that the term harmonic means multiple of the fundamental frequency, while spectral means anything in the frequency space of the signal.  So to clarify, you don't really want harmonic content as much as you want spectral content. 

Let's look at two extremes:  fully clean and fully dirty.  Fully clean would be a signal that contains the fundamental frequency and integer multiples of that fundamental frequency only.  Fully dirty would have so much discordant spectral content that it could be classified as noise.  What you're telling me is that most guitarists would like somewhere in between those extremes, sort of a medium clean / medium dirty signal.  Is that correct?

So some guitarists would like a super-clean, hi-fi type of guitar signal which the invention seems at this point to provide, however most would like some discordant harmonic content.  Well, I'll say this, it's easier to get dirty from clean than clean from dirty.  And in a variety of ways too, so maybe what's needed here is a better understanding of what guitarists actually desire in terms of the various types of discordant harmonic content that can be accomplished with a little bit of additional circuitry. 

I can add inductance, diodes, transistors, amplification, all sorts of such things to craft exactly the sound that you prefer, so maybe what I should ask is - what do you really prefer? 

Les

p.s. also there should be greater harmonic content once I switch to an active preamp instead of a transformer, we will see.  (or rather hear ) :)

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2011, 07:37:34 am »
Oh dear, now things are really confusing... I tried moving the magnets to different positions along the strings, tried different strat switch positions, and tried picking at different locations on the strings.  As you would expect the spectrum changed dramatically in response. 

I guess that's a good thing, and not at all unexpected, it's just kind of startling to see the differences on the screen.  Is there some limited combination of pick position and pickup position that players tend to use?  I mean, you wouldn't use the neck pickup and ply near the bridge or would you?  I'd like to define maybe two or three setups that can be compared, because with all these unknowns it becomes impractical to make a comparison between the two pickup types. 

Les


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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2011, 10:07:19 am »
Well good news I tried an experiment and managed to get really similar sound and spectral plots from the two types of pickups.  You can see the plots and hear the audio sample with discussion here: 

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45883&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Which is the electro-music forum's tiny little guitar subforum.  I posted there because the justinguitar forum does not upload video and audio.  I'm happy about these results being so similar because it provides us with a frame of reference, a basis of comparison between the two pickup types. 

Les

Offline TB-AV

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2011, 02:42:25 pm »
Paragraphs 1, 2, 3  = yes or agreed

Quote
So some guitarists would like a super-clean, hi-fi type of guitar signal

Maybe but I doubt it.

Quote
what do you really prefer?
Well it varies but generally something similar to the majority of pickups on the market leaving out the specialized extremes.

Quote
Is there some limited combination of pick position and pickup position that players tend to use?

No, any pickup combination and strumming, picking from the 12th fret to the bridge, behind the bridge, above the nut, it's all fair game.

----

With respect to your last post. So if you duplicate the factory pickup what next? Is that a starting point? It sounds to me like these pickups will need some form of programming. Most people are going to want that to be analog which will be physically too large. Otherwise you end up with a VG Strat or whatever it's called the modeling strat.




Gone

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2011, 04:39:31 pm »
Hi TB-AV, yes it's a good thing to find this similarity because when you're doing a comparison between two things, you can always refer back to this common example and make inferences like the following one.  I think that both pickups are handling the low E string similarly when configured similarly and plucked similarly because the low E string has the most limited bandwidth of the whole fretboard.  Any mucking with the signal caused by the mag wound pickup's low-pass filter or the invention pickup's transformer or other such nonidealities is minimized.  Therefore we can at least propose that in this particular configuration, they are both properly extracting the string vibrations, converting them into electrical voltage.

In simpler terms, it helps us do an apples-to-apples comparison. 

You ask what's next after we duplicate the factory pickup in one configuration (or approximate it).  I'm not quite sure, but perhaps next is to examine other configurations looking for both similarities and differences.  Like try other strings, or try to match other pickup positions, etc.  Then after that maybe try to see what can be done with the new pickup that cannot be done as well with the old and vice versa.  Like for example, putting the magnets at nodal positions could highlight certain frequencies and reject others, or niche things like can that nodal feature do better pinch harmonics?

There's a lot to explore.  I'll keep you posted and thanks again for your thoughtful comments.  Your constructive criticism is quite valuable to me. 

Les


steveo2

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2011, 06:32:50 pm »
Paragraphs 1, 2, 3  = yes or agreed

Quote
So some guitarists would like a super-clean, hi-fi type of guitar signal

Maybe but I doubt it.

Quote
what do you really prefer?
Well it varies but generally something similar to the majority of pickups on the market leaving out the specialized extremes.

Quote
Is there some limited combination of pick position and pickup position that players tend to use?

No, any pickup combination and strumming, picking from the 12th fret to the bridge, behind the bridge, above the nut, it's all fair game.

----

With respect to your last post. So if you duplicate the factory pickup what next? Is that a starting point? It sounds to me like these pickups will need some form of programming. Most people are going to want that to be analog which will be physically too large. Otherwise you end up with a VG Strat or whatever it's called the modeling strat.

I like a super clean sound, By super clean I mean Eric Johnson, George Benson.
Got these sounds from a Roland jazz chorus, have too model it to get it now.

The selection of pick-ups, I seem too change front, back.
I like the clean with some dirt tone.
 Like high gain too.
If I didn't like these things I would not play guitar.

There are pedals which sound really good, Compressors that just sound good or better than what Guitarist have had to choose from.

I would get a person who can play well and make a Demo, one thing to consider maybe two they make copper pick- guards, for shielding.seem there is no way to shield yours.
The other is just what can a human ear really hear, I can
not hear what my dog hears, Yeah she can't smell what I smell.

Don't give up a dream as player we all want a better tone, I have purchased pedals and other items over the years, but have sold or took them back too the store.

We change our minds and we get set in our ways.

In the present clip I too preferred the standard pick-ups.

Keep trying man



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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2011, 05:12:21 pm »
That's why I love musicians, they can sugar coat bad news with the sincerest of condolences, hah!  And of course I mean that in the kindest way.  Far better than the response of other groups of people IMHO. 

OK, I've gotten over the slight disappointment and arrived at the realization that the plain invention with out added dirtiness is just not for most electric guitar players.  I still think I can make a knob that controls this dirtiness or dissonance and lets you dial in the amount you want, but that is for future development. 

For now, I'll try to target specific markets that the new pickup might be best suited for, such as the electro-acoustic market which someone suggested.  Also I've been advised to go ahead and make guitars for sale as kit sales are just not happening.  In addition to that, I feel that there are some specific niche areas in which the new pickups may excel such as pinch harmonics.  I'm sure you can imagine how a cleaner spectrum would make for easier or even better pinch harmonics. 

Do you have any other suggestions along these lines? 

And most importantly thanks for the encouragement, you folks are alright in my book! 

Les

steveo2

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2011, 05:31:42 pm »
Musician's are artist, any artist is a critic.
I guess we do have a way of sugar coating things at least some do.
When I worked in studios they had a phrase your can polish a turd but it still a turd.
Technology has made it possible to do this with more ease, why get the singing back in when you can click a mouse and the note is perfect.

I always like a great live recorded sound the less polish the better it sounds too me.

Les for all we know you my have a winner the recording is poor the play worst.
It takes more than a note to tell a difference in something.

 :)

Inventor

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2011, 02:44:24 am »
Yes yes, true on all accounts!  I will post again when I have a better recording. 

Les


Offline TB-AV

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2011, 03:19:11 am »
Inventor, Archtop players actually do want to re-create the acoustic nature of their guitars. Now getting a player to do any any surgery on a 5K - 15K guitar is another matter. But generally they really do want the pickup to recreate what their ears hear as the body and tonal quality of the guitar.

Electric players are more or less playing the pickup and amp. The guitar itself is sort of along for the ride out of necessity.

Gone

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Re: Own Your Tone Pickup Kit
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2011, 08:56:02 am »
Ah so I am barking up the wrong tree!  I need to speak with the archetype players or whatever they are called! 

Les


 

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