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General Guitar Learning Discussions => Close2u: Guitar Tips & Practice Ideas, Music Theory & Concepts => Topic started by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 10:54:46 am

Title: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 10:54:46 am
3rds and Thirds

Following up from an instrumental track composed and recorded by DavidP, in which he used double-stop 3rds as the melodic basis for his track, (posted here (https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=46698.0)) I was inspired to create a thread exploring 3rds. I will be developing the thread with reference to intervals, scales, chord shapes, the CAGED system, triads and more. But first, I think that you should all have a little fun playing around with some 3rds. They are very accessible and user-friendly from the outset … as soon as you have a few very basic shapes under your fingers you can begin exploring and making music.
So … here goes with the fun from the get-go.
DavidP played his 3rds on the B & E strings in the key of D. I propose we start from the same place.
For these and all other 3rds we will look at the shapes no higher than fret 15. The shapes do repeat once you reach the octave.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 10:56:51 am
Double Stop 3rds in the key of D

Here is a TAB for the shapes on the B & E strings.

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)

There are only two shapes. Take a few minutes to play these ascending and descending the neck. As you do so, consciously listen to the sounds. Then begin exploring and having fun. They are in the key of D so I recommend you play a drone note or a simple, occasional bass note on the open D string. To begin with you may simply want to slide up and down … something like this.

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample using double-stop 3rds in the key of D on the B & E strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wvx7dp2pee0ft1/Double%20Stop%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20B%26E%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

Tab for the mp3 sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/yXuZYOJ.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 10:59:55 am
Arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D

Once you get a feel for using these 3rds you may want to vary how you play them. They do not have to be played as double stops (both notes simultaneously). You can arpeggiate them.

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample using arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D on the B & E strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/oe5m9ud4g8ec38e/Arpeggiated%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20B%26E%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

TAB for the mp3 sound sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/2fPt16a.jpg)

Now go have some fun and explore, play, enjoy. :)

Then come back for more juicy goodness.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: DavidP on April 16, 2020, 02:52:13 pm
Thanks for this Richard.  Looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Yet more vibes for putting this together for us.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 08:13:01 pm
I hope you're exploring, enjoying and surprising yourselves with the ease of making great sounds from these tiny little pairs of notes we call 3rds.

DavidP certainly had fun ...
Here is a TAB and mp3 of my transcription of his guitar part in his track.

(David kindly gave permission to share this)

mp3 of guitar part (playing double stop 3rds) (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5w86lb3dqg26s05/Voices%20of%20Vincent%20Blue%20Beast%20by%20David%20Preece.mp3?dl=0)


pdf of Tab (https://www.dropbox.com/s/v82dojnkusd38io/Voices%20of%20Vincent%20Blue%20Beast%20by%20David%20Preece.pdf?dl=0)

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 08:25:05 pm
Double Stop 3rds in the key of D

You should by now have picked up your guitar and learned those two shapes on the B & E strings, moved around the fretboard and made some music.

Wow – isn’t that just a whole lot of fun and so, so musical.
And you’ve only been playing little note pairings on the thinnest two strings.
The fun doesn’t stop there … these 3rds can be found on other sets of two adjacent strings. So your enjoyment can expand.

Next we will learn the shapes for 3rds on the G & B strings

Go steady though …

The shapes are not the same as those you have just learned. There are still only two shapes in total on the G & B strings so learning them is not too challenging. Just ensure you get your fingers working right. And once you have them under your fingers you’re good to go.

Here is a TAB for the shapes on the G & B strings.

(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)

Take these shapes and spend time playing them as before – moving them around, ascending and descending the neck. As before, listen to the sounds. Then begin exploring and having fun. Again you can play a drone note or a simple bass pattern on the open D string. To begin with you may simply want to slide up and down … something like this demo.

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample of double-stop 3rds in the key of D on the G & B strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc094ky2a1b31r3/Double%20Stop%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20G%26B%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

TAB for the mp3 sound sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/REwMgjQ.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 08:48:38 pm
Arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D

As before, you do not need to play these 3rds as double stops.

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample using arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D on the G & B strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ibk3h1m70gtejz4/Arpeggiated%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20G%26B%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

TAB for the mp3 sound sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/Dci2Bzs.jpg)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: CT on April 16, 2020, 08:50:21 pm
Sweet!
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 09:23:00 pm
Double Stop 3rds in the key of D

Next comes 3rds on the D & G strings. Within the key of D this throws up a small issue that you will be fingering the D string meaning it won’t be possible to have it ringing out as a drone so much. But you can still play with the open D string and these 3rds.
Here is the TAB for the shapes we need … hang on … they look very familiar … the same shapes as on the B & E strings but in different positions on the fretboard. Mmh. That’s interesting.

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)

As before …

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample using double-stop 3rds in the key of D on the D & G strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3cwxex5z0x8rl7/Double%20Stop%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20D%26G%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

Tab for the mp3 sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/khUhnwp.jpg)
 :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 09:25:46 pm
Arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D

As before, you do not need to play these 3rds as double stops.

Click Here for an mp3 sound sample using arpeggiated 3rds in the key of D on the D & G strings (https://www.dropbox.com/s/h45859r5tkrfbsm/Arpeggiated%203rds%20in%20D%20on%20D%26G%20strings.mp3?dl=0)

TAB for the mp3 sound sample:

(https://i.imgur.com/meaLpwV.jpg)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 09:26:53 pm
Are you having even more fun? You should be having fun to the max by now – this is great stuff!
And we’ve only just begun … there is much, much more to come.


 :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 16, 2020, 09:28:30 pm
Have you figured out which fingers work best?
I deliberately did not prescribe which fingering to use for the different shapes – do what feels right for you. You only need two fingers at a time.

Have you tried combining all these wonderful 3rds you now know how to play?
Have you tried switching between 3rds on the B & E strings, then 3rds on the G & B strings, and the D & G strings?
Have you played some drone notes or bass note patterns on the open D string?
Have you thought to tune your low E string down a whole tone to drop D and use that as an open string for the drone / bass  lines?
Have you been using double stops and arpeggiated techniques?
Have you tried sliding both fingers up or down when the adjacent shapes use identical fingering?
Maybe you can slide up or down with one finger when it is an anchor between the two different shapes?

Try things.
Experiment.
Play.
Have fun.

Have you thought about finding a backing track with a simple diatonic chord progression in the key of D to play over?

Perhaps one of these might suit you …










 :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: sairfingers on April 16, 2020, 10:00:39 pm
Aarrggh. Richard. You come up with all these cool concepts that divert me from the stuff I should be concentrating on!
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 09:33:16 am
... Have you thought about finding a backing track with a simple diatonic chord progression in the key of D to play over?

Mmhh.
Have you done this with a critical listening ear?
Now that there are other instruments and a chord progression, what are you noticing as each chord comes along?
Do some of those 3rds sometimes sound beautiful and harmonious over some chords but not others?
Do some of them sound jarring and dissonant if you rest on them over a certain chord?
Mmhh.
What's going on here?
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: sairfingers on April 17, 2020, 10:10:04 am
6ths,9ths,3rds, yes I can see it’s all related. My problem is feeling like a child in a toy shop not knowing which part of the train set to play with. Eventually I hope to have the full track and wagon layout available. Wow, that was poetic!

I’m off to play Folsom Prison Blues now as that seems particularly apt for this lockdown.
(see what I did there?...trains, blues, prison!) 😃
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 10:29:03 am
Thanks for this Richard.  Looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Yet more vibes for putting this together for us.
Thanks David ... there are plans for further development ... watch this space! :)

Sweet!
As a honey bee ... :)

Aarrggh. Richard. You come up with all these cool concepts that divert me from the stuff I should be concentrating on!

Ha ha. Practice routine ... then fun! :)

6ths,9ths,3rds, yes I can see it’s all related.

You're more right than you might think!!
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: DavidP on April 17, 2020, 10:29:23 am
6ths,9ths,3rds, yes I can see it’s all related. My problem is feeling like a child in a toy shop not knowing which part of the train set to play with. Eventually I hope to have the full track and wagon layout available. Wow, that was poetic!

I’m off to play Folsom Prison Blues now as that seems particularly apt for this lockdown.
(see what I did there?...trains, blues, prison!) 😃

I did Gordon :)

One of the pieces of advice I got from Justin when I was fortunate enough to have one of those one hour Skype sessions, was to focus for a period of time. Like you are expressing, in the conversation we talked about many wagons that I wanted to hook onto my train (see what I did there  ;) ). 

His suggestion was to pick one thing to be the focus on learning new technique.  Concentrate on it for a while maybe a few months and at the end of that period choose to either continue or switch focus.

So I focused (well as much as I focus on the new new) on the first few patterns of folk finger style. I'd mix my time on that and playing songs ... I shall call it consolidation ... others may call it just having fun rather than dedicating myself to continue to learn and grow as a player ... each to their own.

And like all these things, I eventually set myself goals to learn and record songs that used the technique. And I am still in that mode, to a degree ... though Richard posting up about Steady Thumb Blues has caught my eye ...

So maybe just pick the thing that most tickles your fancy and file the rest away ... easier said than done I know  :o
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 01:46:44 pm
Good advice from David. If this thing floats your boat, and you are looking for a new path to follow as a focus alongside your core learning then go for it. Using 3rds is fun, user-friendly and may just open up a whole load of creative juices. As indeed it did for David. His entire backing track originated in playing around with 3rds on the two thinnest strings.  :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 01:48:42 pm
ALERT – MUSICAL THEORY FOLLOWS

So far I have been referring to these pairs of notes on adjacent strings using the term ‘3rds’. Whether played as double stop 3rds or arpeggiated 3rds, the name has been the same. That has been a deliberate and consistent choice. As we now move in to exploring some of the underlying musical concepts in theory, we need a means of differentiating between two almost identical concepts - which I will do by using the terminology 3rds and thirds.

Up to now the whole emphasis has been on making the shapes of 3rds on your guitar, exploring, having fun and playing music with them. We next turn our attention to thirds as opposed to 3rds. A journey which will eventually loop right back around to 3rds again.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 01:51:52 pm
Thirds

A third, put simply, is an interval, a distance, between two musical notes.

In the western system of music notation, the first seven letters of the alphabet are used to provide names. If we line up these letters in alphabetical order we have:
A   B   C   D   E   F   G   

If you select any letter at random, it would be your start point - the first.
The next adjacent letter would count as the second.
The one after would be the third.

If you were to start at F or G you would need to consider that the list repeats - as these notes repeat in ascending and descending directions (higher and lower notes).

A   B   C   D   E   F   G   A   B   C   D   E   F   G   

Examples:

i] A to C represents an interval of a third

ii] D to F represents an interval of a third

iii] G to B represents an interval of a third

Now that we have a simple concept of interval naming, we need to broaden it out. Of the seven lettered notes, five have sharps / flats so we must apply the system to the totality of all 12 notes in western music.  We need to look at the note circle.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 01:54:36 pm
The Note Circle

The Note Circle shows all the 12 notes that exist in Western music. Moving clockwise around the circle takes us to notes higher in pitch and vice versa for anticlockwise. Note pairs E & F and B & C have no note between. Notes that can take two names are called enharmonic equivalents (G# = Ab for example).
The interval of a semitone is the smallest step on the guitar and is one fret. The interval of two semitones makes one whole tone. These two intervals make up scales.

(https://i.imgur.com/UKpAqnu.jpg)

Returning to the three examples above, the note circle highlights a crucial concept. The distances between the named pairs are not all equal.

i] A to C is a third of distance 3 semitones

ii] D to F is a third of distance 3 semitones

iii] G to B is a third of distance 4 semitones

All three intervals are thirds yet not all represent the same distance between musical notes.

Before continuing, it is vital to define that an interval of 4 semitones (2 whole tones) is a Major third and an interval of 3 semitones is a minor third.

Next, we will look at connecting these pairs of intervals to the Major scale and to chord construction.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:11:52 pm
The Major Scale

Knowing about the Major scale is fundamental to understanding musical ideas, structures and language. It follows a fixed pattern of intervals around the note circle. That pattern, the Major scale formula, is:
Tone - Tone - Semitone - Tone - Tone - Tone - Semitone

This is shortened to:
T  -  T  -  S  -  T  -  T  -  T  -  S

or
W  -  W  -  H  -  W  -  W  -  W  -  H
where W = Whole (tone) and H = Half (tone).

The D Major Scale is a good place to start as we have been playing 3rds in the key of D.

   T  -  T  -  S  -  T  -  T  -  T  -  S
D  -  E  -  F# -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C# -  D



Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:49:53 pm
Each of the seven notes in the D Major scale can be a root note for seven chords. All these chords would be within the key of D Major and all would be made up of notes from the D Major scale. This involves a little look at chord construction and a process called Harmonising the Major Scale.

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:54:04 pm
Constructing a D Major chord from the D Major scale

Simple Major and minor chords are built from only three notes  -  their root (first) plus two others. These two other notes are found by counting along a scale pattern and choosing the note at an interval of a third from the root, then counting from that new note another third. This is easy to see by returning to the seven notes of the D Major scale and forming the D Major chord.

1  -  2  -  3  -  4  -  5  -  6  -  7
D  -  E  -  F# -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#    Count D, miss E, count F#, miss G, count A, stop.
D  -  X  -  F# -  X  -  A  -  X  -  X
1  -  X  -  3  -  X  -  5  -  X  -  X

D is the Root note.
Counting a third from D takes us to F#, called the third of the chord.
Counting a third from F# takes us to A, called the fifth of the chord.

The D Major chord contains the three notes D  -  F#  -  A, the first, third and fifth.

Note:

i] The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is D Major.

ii] The third of the chord is literally at an interval of a third from the Root note and it is the third note of the scale itself. In building subsequent chords, their third notes will be a third along from their roots but will not be the actual third of the D Major scale. This is because we take their root notes as the new first position to count from. See below.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:55:40 pm
Harmonising the D Major Scale

We will now work through the entire process of harmonising the D Major scale to create all seven chords within the key of D Major.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:57:07 pm
1] D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A

1  -  2  -  3  -  4  -  5  -  6  -  7
D  -  E  -  F# -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#

1  -  X   -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is D Major.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:58:22 pm
2] E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D

      1  -  X   -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is E minor.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 02:59:28 pm
3] F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E

            1   -  X  -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is F# minor.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 03:01:10 pm
4] G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#

                   1  -  X  -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is G Major.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 03:02:45 pm
5] A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G

                         1  -  X  -  3   -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 4 semitones  -  this is a Major third so the chord is A Major.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 03:04:10 pm
6] B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A

                               1  -  X   -  3  -  X  -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones  -  this is a minor third so the chord is B minor.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 03:06:53 pm
7] C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G (the awkward diminished chord)

D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B

                                     1   -  X  -  3  -  X   -  5

The interval from first to third is 3 semitones, this is a minor third but this is a C# diminished chord, not C# minor.
This is due to the distance between its first and fifth. The six Major and minor chords have an interval of a ‘perfect fifth’ (seven semitones) between their first and fifth.
This diminished chord is unique in having a ‘diminished fifth’ interval (six semitones) between them. Enough of that here.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 08:44:09 pm
We will return to 3rds somewhere further along ... but there is a little more to explain and connect together first.
Having looked at the Major scale, chord construction using 'stacked thirds' (the first, third and fifth) then harmonising the Major scale, we will continue the journey with a look at open & barre chords, barre chords & triads, then triads will return us back to 3rds once again.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 09:09:12 pm
Open Chords and Barre Chords

When learning our first chords we learn open position chords. We learn five Major chords, E, D, A, C and G. The shapes / patterns of these give rise to what is called the CAGED system.
We also learn three minor chords; Em, Dm and Am.

Playing those chord shapes away from the nut, using only fingers 2 / 3 / 4, and with the index finger barring across the strings behind the shape, gives rise to moveable barre chords. All barre chords are derived from open position chord shapes.

All Major and minor open chord shapes (and hence the barre chords too) contain one or more triad shapes. All triads are the smallest possible shape that can be played as a Major or a minor chord, containing the three notes first, third and fifth.
We will now look at the open and barre CAGED shapes for Major and minor chords, simply to see these diagrammatically

(https://i.imgur.com/P5HzYiE.jpg)

Note that there are eight, not ten chord shapes. The C and G shapes do not give rise to a matching minor chord. So, in total, there are five foundation shapes (all Major) in the CAGED system, plus three minor shapes derived from the A, E and D shapes. Note also that, srictly speaking, no barre is needed for the D-shape chords.

The intervals are shown on each diagram.

Key:
(https://i.imgur.com/nZIl2bQ.jpg) = Root
(https://i.imgur.com/5XCdMWb.jpg) = Major third
(https://i.imgur.com/zzAnwAY.jpg) = minor third
(https://i.imgur.com/Sm6b6Uw.jpg) = perfect fifth


Note the differences.
Major chords have a Major third, whereas minor chords are formed by lowering the third by one semitone, so contain a minor third.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: sairfingers on April 17, 2020, 09:13:46 pm
Richard
I can’t believe your patience, interest and dedication to this site. No amount of good vibes is enough!!
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 09:16:38 pm
Barre Chords and Triads

Next we will take those barre chord shapes and pick out the triads within. For simplicity I am going to restrict this to only triads found on two sets of three adjacent strings, either on the D, G and B strings or on the G, B and E strings.

(https://i.imgur.com/98L3kiH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iWzwrRB.jpg)

Note:

i] There are two instances of two CAGED shapes leading to the exact same triad shape.
The A-shape and the G-shape chords lead to the same Major triad on the D, G and B strings.
The D-shape and the C-shape chords lead to the exact same Major triad on the G, B and E strings.
(We shall return to this later in the thread.)

ii] For the D-Shape triads on the D, G and B strings, the triad shape is not a perfect overlay with the chord form. The third and flat third respectively need to be found a little higher on the D-string,  taken from the C-Shape chord which lies just ahead as you move along the neck. This may seem like cheating but … hey ho …
And this small alteration leads to a third instance of two CAGED shapes leading to the exact same triad shapes as in note [ i ].
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 09:17:49 pm
Richard
I can’t believe your patience, interest and dedication to this site. No amount of good vibes is enough!!

Thanks Gordon ... I appreciate you saying it. :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 17, 2020, 09:22:02 pm
These last dozen or so posts have contained a lot of information. For some of you it may be a simple stroll along familiar paths. For others it may be new and difficult to comprehend and take in at first reading. So it is time for a short pause in the forward progression through this topic. Take time, re-read where necessary, read it with your guitar in hand to connect words and concepts with actual sounds of notes and chords and triads.
The next few steps will contain the 'big reveal' that takes us all the way back to the beginning of this venture .. knowing and playing the 3rds shapes on the guitar.
Please, please chime in with comments, questions and thoughts.
:)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 19, 2020, 10:45:18 am
The three triad shapes


Hopefully you have been able to take the time to read, scrutinise and digest the information and the  diagrams.


From the two sets of neck diagrams above we can see that there are three triad shapes for Major triads and for minor triads on the two string sets under consideration.

Triad shapes on the D, G & B strings (3 Major / 3 minor)

(https://i.imgur.com/hdP68kj.jpg)

Triad shapes on the G, B & E strings (3 Major / 3 minor)

(https://i.imgur.com/Vry1ZT4.jpg)

That is it. There are no other triad shapes on adjacent string sets.

Next we will start to see how these triad shapes lead to the shapes of the 3rds that we learned and began using at the start of the thread.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 19, 2020, 11:02:50 am
Triads and thirds

A triad, within its formulation, will contain two intervals of a third. Let us return to the seven triads (chords) derived from harmonising the D Major scale. We can refer to the note circle once again to determine the nature of the two intervals of thirds within each chord formula.

(https://i.imgur.com/UKpAqnu.jpg)


Remember, 4 semitones is an interval of a Major third and 3 semitones is an interval of a minor third.

1] D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   
D to F# = Major third then F# to A = minor third.

2] E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B
E to G = minor third then G to B = Major third.

3] F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#
F# to A = minor third then A to C# = Major third.

4] G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D
G to B = Major third then B to D = minor third.

5] A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E
A to C# = Major third then C# to E = minor third.

6] B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#
B to D = minor third then D to F# = Major third.

7] C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G
C# to E = minor third then E to G = minor third

Note the alternating pattern.
Major chord triad formulae contain Major then minor thirds.
Minor chord triad formulae contain minor then Major thirds.
The diminished chord, as usual, does its own unique thing!
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 19, 2020, 12:59:06 pm
Shapes of 3rd

We can now revisit the twelve triad diagrams above with the intention of selecting all pairs of thirds in groups of ascending notes that either go from first to third or third to fifth. For all such pairings the notes have been changed to blue and other notes have been greyed out.
A few triad shapes contain two such pairs so all three notes are blue.
What we need to do here is look for any repeating patterns / shapes on the guitar neck.


(https://i.imgur.com/U8iOYqw.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Cjf6wAM.jpg)

There seem to be many pairs spread across these triad shapes. But in fact there are only two shapes for each pair on any given set of two adjacent strings. Just two.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 19, 2020, 01:30:37 pm
Shapes of 3rds on D & G then G & B then B & E strings

(https://i.imgur.com/xY1rOGZ.jpg)

In previous diagrams, the notes were shown within the CAGED structure, and the triads were shown from within those chord shapes. So each was labelled with Root, third or fifth.
These 3rds deliberately show no labelling. They are only for illustrative purposes to show shapes on the guitar neck.
These shapes are moveable. What the notes are, and the nature of the two notes, whilst always being 3rds, will depend on where they are played. And their ‘sound’ will depend on what they are being played over … bass notes / chord etc. More of that to come.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: DavidP on April 19, 2020, 02:01:03 pm
Following along keenly, Richard.  I think this going to to be another that warrants book-marking for future reference.  You lay it all out in such a logical way.

In fact, I think there should be an area on the Forum for Richard's Expositions.  The chord tones was the first that I specifically recall that was valuable to me and this will be the second.

I know it is the Justin Guitar Forum but you've contributed so much over the few years I've been here, I am sure I'd get universal support for this suggestion.

And will have to be a future reference for me because the time is now for me to try and get my fingers around Steady Thumb Blues to be played on my resonator ... finally I can take that guitar down off its rack and begin to play the music on it for which it is so well suited :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: sairfingers on April 19, 2020, 02:33:36 pm
Following along keenly, Richard.  I think this going to to be another that warrants book-marking for future reference.
I agree with David. All great stuff but too much for me to take in at the moment. In the words of Arnold ‘I’ll be back’.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 20, 2020, 09:05:26 pm
@ David & Gordon.
You are both very kind and supportive.

I'm glad you are reading along and making some sense of it all. I totally understand that you have a focus on other learning just now.
I shall continue as I have much more to expound! :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: Twilight Storm on April 20, 2020, 09:51:59 pm
Love this, close2u. :) Thank you.

Didn't see you started this yet, until a couple days ago.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: CT on April 21, 2020, 06:11:55 am
Cool beans! I doinked around with this for a bit, the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey, and have their place. It was a fun exercise.

I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context) at the moment. I just played about 8 bars or so of open A7 strums into my Trio to get some drum and bass backing in a loop. When the loop plays, hit the fingered A7 notes (D & B strings) at the same time and then move them up around to the 5th and 7th fret and back to open A7. Play some pentatonic licks while you're up at the 5th fret. Move farther up to the 12th and 14th fret, and do some more pentatonic riffs at the 12th fret. My fingers are really feeling it. Great fun! I'm going to do more dbl-stop exploration this week.

Thanks @close2u for lighting the fire.   
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: Garfield on April 21, 2020, 07:35:07 am
Whoa started reading but out of time I'll circle back. Thanks close

Sent from my SM-A530F using JustinGuitar Community mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93296)

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 10:20:15 am
@ Twilight STorm ... glad you found and like it.

... the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey, and have their place. It was a fun exercise.
Chimey, sweet, happy and very, very major sounding with that D note droning in the bass. It is fun. It can go in other directions too ... :)

Quote
I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context) ... hit the fingered A7 notes (D & B strings) at the same time and then move them up around to the 5th and 7th fret and back to open A7 ... Move farther up to the 12th and 14th fret...
I believe you may have stumbled upon sixths (6ths). I agree, they are enormous fun. And sliding sixths is a real-cool blues move.
I'm very happy to have given a spark that lit a fire. :)


@ Garfield ... glad to see you checking this out. It is a thread for practical work and not just reading. Until you play the 3rds on the first set of TABs on the B & E strings and mess around with them, you don't need to continue reading. Read the thread with guitar in hand. :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 10:46:14 am
... the dbl-stop 3rds are chimey ... I may have found some dbl-stops that I like better (in a blooze context)

Here is a little something for you Clint.
Return to these 3rds as laid out within the thread so far and play them over a minor blues backing track in B minor.
Such as ...




Step out of playing them as just double stops. Mix your style by adding in sections when you play the notes separately. Connect the 3rds shapes by sliding up and down.

Hmmm.
How does that sound?

Anything worth posting over in Guitar Challenge 0008 (https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=44255.0) in B minor?
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 10:54:33 am
3rds in the key of D … reprise

It is worth repeating … there are only two shapes for 3rds on any given set of two adjacent strings.
At the very outset of this thread, 3rds in the key of D were introduced step by step. Firstly on the B & E strings. Then on the G & B strings. And lastly on the D & G strings. I deliberately chose to miss any 3rds that use the Low E & A strings.

For ease of reference, here are those 3rds in TAB format again.

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)

At the time, they were simply presented as nothing more than shapes to explore musically as the fancy took. They were not ‘rooted’ (excuse the pun) in any knowledge or theory. They were not connected to scales or chords. They seemed to have their own independent existence separate of anything else. They sound good and they are fairly easy to play. What’s not to like? Why bother any further?

Well …
It is time to root those 3rds within the context of the D Major scale and the diatonic chords that it gives rise to. We have already seen the seven chords that come from stacking thirds in the process of harmonising the D Major scale. It is time to root those 3rds within the context of a CAGED shape, that become triad shapes, that contain the magic intervals of thirds that we play as note pairs called 3rds. And because we are rooting the 3rds within the context of chords, we will see that they can be thought of as partial chords.

These partial chords will, hopefully, be completely obvious in the first instance. But, beyond the obvious lie some hidden facets that may surprise. The 3rds can be very ambiguous, very fluid, in their make-up, and take the character of more than one chord.

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 11:00:44 am
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

As we saw earlier, harmonising the D Major scale gives these chords:

D Major; E minor; F# minor; G Major; A Major; B minor; C# diminished.

We are going to see these chords charted only using the D-shape triad forms on the G. B and E strings for now.

(https://i.imgur.com/kncSnRX.jpg)

Let’s remove one note from each triad and see what we have …

(https://i.imgur.com/okZZ5mL.jpg)

Wow. Oh boy. Those shapes are familiar!

See how by simply ‘removing’ the notes on the G string, we have laid out the 3rds that we began exploring way back at the start of the thread?

The note ‘removed’ is the fifth of each chord so we can look at these 3rds as a sequence of partial chords, containing just the root and third, that track exactly the sequence of chords in the harmonised D Major scale.

Play these 3rds from the ‘tonic’ D at frets 2 & 3 to its octave and you will hear the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do with a harmony voice of thirds singing above.

So the original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


          C#dim    D      Em      F#m     G      A       Bm     C#dim    D

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)

Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: CT on April 21, 2020, 12:51:28 pm
Yeah, I think that's the ticket. Learn the various dbl-stop options, so that they are in your tool kit, and then mix and match them for more melodic solos. Tons of good YouTube videos out there to draw from. I previously approached dbl-stops in a half hearted way, but now I see it opening up a lot of possibilities. They lend themselves well to practice tied to chord tones/triads, scales and general fretboard traversing. I've got some practicing to do now. :)   
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: brianlarsen on April 21, 2020, 03:42:14 pm
Aarrrrgh!   
How am I going to remember all these threads for when I'm ready?!?  ::)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 08:59:09 pm
... Learn the various dbl-stop options... mix and match them for more melodic solos... They lend themselves well to practice tied to chord tones/triads, scales and general fretboard traversing... 

Perfect take away from this so far. :)

@ Brian
I forget many of them myself ha ha :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 09:16:27 pm
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

This exact process of converting triads to 3rds labelled as partial chords (by removing a note on just one string for each) can be done for the sets of 3rds on the G & B strings, using A-shape triads.

Here are those triads as seen earlier.

(https://i.imgur.com/Fkz9CH8.jpg)

Once again, by always removing the fifth from each triad which always sits on the D string, we have these previously seen 3rds.

(https://i.imgur.com/yRBl6vl.jpg)


This time the 'tonic' is mid neck.

The original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


             G       A     Bm    C#dim     D      Em    F#m      G      A

(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)

Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 21, 2020, 09:21:32 pm
3rds as ‘partial chords’ following the sequence of chords from the harmonised D Major scale

This exact process of converting triads to 3rds labelled as partial chords (by removing a note on just one string for each) can be done once again for the sets of 3rds on the D & G strings, using E-shape triads.

Here are those triads as seen earlier.

(https://i.imgur.com/7HTi2sQ.jpg)


Once again, by always removing the fifth from each triad which this time is always found on the B string, we have these previously seen 3rds.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZEE5LNt.jpg)


The original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


            Em       F#m        G        A         Bm      C#dim      D

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)

Where the chord names are really partial chords, intervals between first and third, where the sound of the 3rd is suggestive of the chord.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:12:11 pm
The ambiguous character of 3rds

So, each of these 3rds, as tabbed at the very start of this thread, can be suggestive of the chord from whose CAGED shape it derives. They can be thought of, and heard, as a partial chord, a chord fragment.

BUT ... BUT ... BUT ...

Two notes does not make a (single, unambiguous) chord.

Let us look again at the pairs of notes contained within each 3rd. For consistency, let us start with the 3rds on the B & E strings.

Here is each, this time labelled only with the note names and the character of the third they contain (Major or minor).

(https://i.imgur.com/FUfGtjv.jpg)

Look carefully at these and now recall how the chords from the harmonised D Major scale were built using stacked thirds. Each ascending note was a third above the previous note. Each Major chord had a Major third followed by a minor third. Each minor chord had a minor third followed by a Major third. So might it be that these pairs can be seen as belonging to more than one chord?
Bingo!
Darn right they can.
We shall see each of the 3rds and set them alongside the various chord formulae next.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:13:56 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/6qdeXGw.jpg)     

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:14:39 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/S7zL9kK.jpg)
 
D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:16:01 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/8fk5Uld.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:16:50 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/7sAO1wU.jpg)

D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as an F# minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:17:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/z5myYqH.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:18:31 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/8bSVBn7.jpg)

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:19:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/yNTOCo1.jpg)

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a G Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:20:10 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/5Vn2wqJ.jpg)

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

(Already seen an octave lower.)

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:20:55 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/dGTCC95.jpg)

D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

(Already seen an octave lower.)

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 09:25:58 pm
So the original TAB of 3rds could now be labelled with two chord names for each 3rd:



         C#dim     D     Em      F#m      G      A      Bm     C#dim     D

           A      Bm    C#dim     D      Em     F#dim    G      A       Bm

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)

Where the chord names are really partial chords, either intervals between first and third or intervals between third and fifth.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 25, 2020, 10:22:44 pm
Whoa.
Hold on there.
What is happening here?

A small recap.
The seven chords of the harmonised D Major scale are
D  -  Em  -  F#m  -  G  -  A  -  Bm  -  C# dim


These chords are formed from stacked thirds (see previous explanation in the thread).

These chords contain three notes only.
A first, a third and a fifth.
The first is the root of the chord.
The third determines whether it be a Major or minor chord.
The fifth completes the chord.
The interval between first and fifth is a perfect fifth for all but the diminished chord.

If any two notes of any of these seven chords are sounded, then you can hear them as partial chords, chord fragments, suggestions of that chord. This sense will be further affected by any bass note that is playing (maybe on a drone string) or full chord in a backing track.

We arrived at an understanding of the shape, the derivations and a possible way of defining the chords by thinking of the harmonised chords as CAGED shapes, stripping those back to triads then removing one further note to arrive at simple pairs.
And we came right back to the start - thinking that each 3rd represented one chord from the key of D Major.

Look again at the newly labelled TAB.



          C#dim   D       Em     F#m     G       A      Bm     C#dim     D

           A      Bm    C#dim     D      Em     F#dim    G       A      Bm

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)

Each 3rd can be seen / heard as any one of two of the seven harmonised chords.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: DavidP on April 26, 2020, 08:04:27 am
Still following along, still keeping up with theory.  Excellent expounding, Richard.

And I'll say again, I think we need a childboard or pinned topics for Richard's expositions, so all who come later and those who want to come back when it is right for them, can easily find these goldmines of learning.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 10:51:59 am
I'm so glad it is all making sense to you David.
Either Justin's theory course is being good for you, or I'm managing to explain things simply, or both! :)

My own section? Mmmh.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: DavidP on April 26, 2020, 10:58:13 am
I'm so glad it is all making sense to you David.
Either Justin's theory course is being good for you, or I'm managing to explain things simply, or both! :)

My own section? Mmmh.

Definitely both Richard.  I've got as far as harmonising the major scale at Justin's level 3 (and the number of #s and bs) but last time I tried to make sense of intervals (in the old pdf as I recall) it made no sense.  Now with your explanations the mist clears a little more.  Still won't be requiring  '8)'s
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:14:34 pm
The ambiguous character of 3rds continued

Let us now go through an entirely similar process for the 3rds on the G & B strings.
Here is each, this time labelled only with the note names and the character of the third they contain (Major or minor).

(https://i.imgur.com/WUY6Hqs.jpg)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:15:18 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/HYMualo.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:15:47 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/GFRm8AE.jpg)

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:16:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/faLtCT7.jpg)

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a G Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:16:49 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/eyNTyuj.jpg)

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:17:25 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/w9XFpYM.jpg)

D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:17:56 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/HIjrJMh.jpg)
E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:18:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/zwpHJLk.jpg)
D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as an F# minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:18:52 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Vk3wzKa.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:19:16 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/o7eAqa9.jpg)
F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:19:32 pm
So the original TAB of 3rds could now be labelled with two chord names for each 3rd:


             G       A     Bm    C#dim     D      Em    F#m      G      A
            Em      F#m     G      A      Bm     C#dim   D      Em     F#m 
   

(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)


Where the chord names are really partial chords, either intervals between first and third or intervals between third and fifth.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 12:29:02 pm
Maybe we can already anticipate what will follow ...
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:23:36 pm
The ambiguous character of 3rds continued further still

Let us now go through an entirely similar process for the 3rds on the D & G strings.
Here is each, this time labelled only with the note names and the character of the third they contain (Major or minor).


(https://i.imgur.com/Fc7KqKo.jpg)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:24:41 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/sAft792.jpg)
E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:13 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/VCGxfmK.jpg)
D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as an F# minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:22 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4WBNEHE.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a G Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:30 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/9DNkgFh.jpg)

F# minor chord = F#  -  A  -  C#

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an F# minor chord or an A Major chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:38 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/c3bgqsM.jpg)

G Major chord = G  -  B  -  D

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a G Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:46 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/1PWFZL8.jpg)

A Major chord = A  -  C#  -  E

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an A Major chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:25:54 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/MD9xz37.jpg)

D Major chord = D  -  F#  -  A   

B minor chord = B  -  D  -  F#

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either a D Major chord or as a B minor chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:26:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/NcJuhAg.jpg)

E minor chord = E  -  G  -  B

C# diminished chord = C#  -  E  -  G

This 3rd could be seen / heard as either an E minor chord or as a C# diminished chord.

It is ambiguous.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:26:11 pm
So the original TAB of 3rds could be labelled:


            Em       F#m        G        A         Bm      C#dim      D

           C#dim      D        Em        F#m        G        A        Bm                 
 

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 26, 2020, 01:26:19 pm
Putting all three sets of TABs together, with each 3rd labelled as two partial chords, gives us:



         C#dim     D     Em      F#m      G      A      Bm     C#dim     D

           A      Bm    C#dim     A      Bm     C#dim    G      A       Bm

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)




             G       A     Bm    C#dim     D      Em    F#m      G      A
            Em      F#m     G      A      Bm     C#dim   D      Em     F#m 
   

(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)




            Em       F#m        G        A         Bm      C#dim      D

           C#dim      D        Em        F#m        G        A        Bm                 
 

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)



Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on April 30, 2020, 08:59:09 pm
With this new found concept laid over the top of these 3rds, different approaches could follow in practice.

Played as a stand alone, playing the 3rds and moving between them in various musical, rhythmic ways, could lead your ear to hear some as natural stopping places of happy resolution and stability, whilst others could sound a teeny bit off-colour if you land and stay on them within your own context, so are best used as passing 3rds, stepping stones between 3rds that suit that role better. But the fluidity and restriction will be very loose and elastic. You will probably find that you can pretty much play what you want, as you want, when you want and it will all sound pretty darn good.


Played over a backing track of a defined chord progression, you may find that there are definitely some 'good' 3rds and some 'not-so-good' 3rds over certain chords. Those that sound right and those you need to pass by fairly quickly. This ties in with the tabbed notation above where each 3rd is named as a suggestion of a chord. Take, for example a simple I, vi, IV, V chord progression in D:

D, Bm, G, A.

Over the D chord any of the 3rds named D will sound perfectly at home.
Can you find others that sit beautifully on top of that D chord also?
Can you find any that sound wrong over it?

Try the other chords with the same critical ear and questioning approach in your play.
What works and where?
What doesn't?


For those 3rds that do work can you begin a little analysis yourself?
Why do they sound good?
What notes are in the 3rds that sound good?
What connection do they have to the chord in the progression?
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:44:38 am
Chords extended beyond the triads

So far all that we have focussed on in terms of chords are triads. Chords that are obtained by stacking three thirds in the process of harmonising the Major scale. That process can continue beyond just the first, third and fifth. If another step along the notes of the Major scale is taken, if the next interval of a third beyond the fifth is included, we start to create chords with a seventh in them. These seventh chords can be Major 7, minor 7 or dominant 7.

I do not intend going through the formulation of each and every chord in painstaking detail, so shall cut right to the chase here.

The D Major scale …


D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D  -  E  -  F#  -  G  -  A  -  B  -  C#  -  D


The chords resulting from stacking four lots of thirds together:

1] D Major 7 = D  -  F#  -  A – C#

2] Em7 = E  -  G  -  B  -  D

3] F#m7 = F#  -  A  -  C#  -  E

4] G Major 7 = G  -  B  -  D  –  F#

5] A7 = A  -  C#  -  E  -  G

6] Bm7 = B  -  D  -  F#  -  A

7] C# m7b5 = C#  -  E  -  G  -  B

Now each harmonised chord comprises a new third pairing at the end of their respective formulae. But, importantly, none of these pairs are new, they have all appeared previously in different chords and different guises. Some as a pair of first to third intervals. Some as a pair of third to fifth intervals. It was these two types that allowed us to reach the point above where we could say that each 3rd can be suggestive of two chords, not just one.

The extension of that very same idea will allow us to see that each 3rd can also be seen / heard as suggestive of a type of seventh chord - if it is being played over that chord in the backing.
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:47:20 am
(https://i.imgur.com/S7zL9kK.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/dGTCC95.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/w9XFpYM.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/MD9xz37.jpg)


Previously this was suggestive of either a D Major or a B minor chord.

We can now add to that. When played over a G Major chord, this 3rd will add the quality of G Major 7 to the sound.

G Major 7 = G  -  B  -  D – F#
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:50:39 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8fk5Uld.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/HIjrJMh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sAft792.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/NcJuhAg.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either an E minor or a C# diminished chord.

We can now add to that. When played over an A Major chord, this 3rd will add the quality of A7 to the sound.

A7 chord = A  -  C#  -  E  -  G
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:52:41 am
(https://i.imgur.com/7sAO1wU.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/zwpHJLk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VCGxfmK.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either an F# minor or a D Major chord.

We can now add to that. When played over a B minor chord, this 3rd will add the quality of B minor 7 to the sound.

B minor 7 chord = B  -  D  -  F# - A
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:53:46 am
(https://i.imgur.com/z5myYqH.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/HYMualo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Vk3wzKa.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/4WBNEHE.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either a G Major or an E minor chord.

We can now add to that. When played over a C# diminished chord, this 3rd will add the quality of C# m7b5 to the sound.

C# m7b5 chord = C#  -  E  -  G  -  B
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:55:20 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8bSVBn7.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/GFRm8AE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/o7eAqa9.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/9DNkgFh.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either an A Major or a C# diminished chord.

We can now add to that. When played over a D Major chord, this 3rd will add the quality of D Major 7 to the sound.

D Major 7 chord = D  -  F#  -  A  -  C#
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:56:35 am
(https://i.imgur.com/yNTOCo1.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/faLtCT7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c3bgqsM.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either a G Major or a B minor chord.

We can now add to that. When played over an E minor chord, this 3rd will add the quality of E minor 7 to the sound.

E minor 7 chord = E  -  G  -  B  -  D
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:57:28 am
(https://i.imgur.com/6qdeXGw.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/5Vn2wqJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eyNTyuj.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/1PWFZL8.jpg)

Previously this was suggestive of either an A Major or a C# diminished chord.

We can now add to that. When played over an F# minor chord, this 3rd will add the quality of F# minor 7 to the sound.

F# minor 7 chord = F#  -  A  -  C# - E

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:57:45 am
Now that we have seen all chords extended with sevenths, we can take stock and label one final time the TAB diagrams with their partial chords or suggestive sounds.


         C#dim     D     Em      F#m      G      A      Bm     C#dim     D     

           A      Bm    C#dim     D      Em     F#dim    G      A       Bm     

          F#m7   Gmaj7   A7      Bm7   C#m7b5   Dmaj7   Em7    F#m7    Gmaj7     

(https://i.imgur.com/kco9YZM.jpg)




             G       A     Bm    C#dim     D      Em    F#m      G      A

            Em      F#m     G      A      Bm     C#dim   D      Em     F#m

           C#m7b5  Dmaj7    Em7   F#m7   Gmaj7   A7     Bm7   C#m7b5   Dmaj7
   
(https://i.imgur.com/sGiJhyl.jpg)




            Em       F#m        G        A         Bm      C#dim      D

           C#dim      D        Em        F#m        G        A        Bm     

            A7        Bm     C#m7b5     Dmaj7      Em7     F#m7      Gmaj7   

(https://i.imgur.com/eBRhV6C.jpg)


You may wish to cross reference those TABs with the chord formulae together.

1] D Major 7 = D  -  F#  -  A – C#
2] Em7 = E  -  G  -  B  -  D
3] F#m7 = F#  -  A  -  C#  -  E
4] G Major 7 = G  -  B  -  D  –  F#
5] A7 = A  -  C#  -  E  -  G
6] Bm7 = B  -  D  -  F#  -  A
7] C# m7b5 = C#  -  E  -  G  -  B
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:05:00 pm
Back to the fun

Warning – Fun Alert – Cool Stuff Dead Ahead


We started off in this whole exploration of 3rds with the notion of having fun, playing, bringing along a 'joie de vivre' to using 3rds and in turn getting the shapes under our fingers.
There followed a deep dive in to some theoretical underpinnings.

Now is time to get back to fun fun fun.
 :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:05:16 pm
Playing these 3rds solo

If you have not yet, go back to the first page and begin finding the shapes of these 3rds on your fretboard.
Find your fingering.
Most people use fingers 1, 2 & 3 only.

Play them in succession, as double stops, arpeggiated, slide them around, learn them as pairs on one set of strings first before learning on other sets of strings.

Have fun.
:) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:20:56 pm
Playing over a D Major backing track

I posted a couple of backing tracks in post #11 (https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=46802.msg418563#msg418563).

Try playing some 3rds over them, or other D Major backing tracks.
See if you can make your guitar play sound great over the top.
As embellishment work.
As melodic ideas or harmonies, sliding notes up and down in arpeggiated or double stop style.
You don't need to overplay, just make it fit and sound good.

Have fun.
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:27:45 pm
Playing over a B minor blues

CT wanted to be able to use 3rds in a 'bloozy' way and found these D Major 3rds very bright and happy and melodic.
They are.
If playing solo or over a D Major backing.

So for bloozy, try something totally different instead.

Play over a B minor blues backing track. I posted one of these in post #49 (https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=46802.msg418933#msg418933).

This will work a treat if you mix these D Major 3rds with some B minor pentatonic licks and riffs.

(Something to do with relative minor - but hey - don't even think about it ... just know that it works.)

D Major 3rds and B minor blues - go dig it.
Yeah!

Have fun.
 :) :) :)



Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:40:30 pm
Playing over a minor song

You may want to play a minor moment ... something smooth, soulful and seductive ... something mellow, meaningful and moody ... something honest, heartfelt and heavenly ...

Try playing these 3rds, along with either the B minor pentatonic scale - or even the B Aeolian (B natural minor) scale over a backing such as these:







Feel it, be it, mean it.

Have fun.
:) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 01, 2020, 08:42:14 pm
Playing over an E dorian vamp

Yes, it's true.

You can take these D Major 3rds, play them mixed in with a little E minor pentatonic and have some mega dorian fun.

(You can of course use the E blues scale, or, if you know it, E Dorian scale.)

Freaking fast funky E Dorian fun:




Groovy vamp with a light reggae bounce:




Chill with this mellow pill:





Have fun.
:) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 02, 2020, 10:13:31 pm
Inspired by my own good self, I have created a few backing tracks with guitar and Digitech Trio+ ... and I have just created a new Guitar Challenge here (https://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=46899.0) containing these tracks to practice using these 3rds along with various scales for different moods, sounds and styles as described in the several posts above.

Have fun.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: roger!holland on May 04, 2021, 04:06:01 pm
So, ... that was a lot to read in almost one time, and practice for a few hours, but it is already a lot better now in my head/vingers than I thought possible in one day....many thanks for this explanation and matching backing tracks and tips...... now i will rest for a week ,...or at least a day..probably half a day,
it's just too much fun to learn, and there is much more out there  ;D 8)
Thanks ,
Rogier
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: close2u on May 04, 2021, 08:12:05 pm
Roger ... oh my goodness ... wow.
You read and worked through this entire thread with guitar in hand in one day?

Huge kudos and good vibes to you sir. That is quite an accomplishment.
Bravo.
And thank you for giving it your time.

As the final series of posts encourage - above all else - I hope you had fun, fun, fun! :)
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: batwoman on May 05, 2021, 02:44:49 am
Modes, Co5 and now this that I've stumbled on.   :o

I'm never going to catch up.

Thankyou Richard.

Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: roger!holland on May 05, 2021, 06:48:40 am
Thanks for your nice words,
But I did the theory course of Justin .... way too fast in a couple of weeks :P, and so I have to review a lot and absorb it really well, but the basics are there ..... and I have a large part of the day most of the time to learn to understand the guitar and I also play more and more, instead of exercises scales and etc..
which, by the way, I really enjoy doing.

And Batwoman, piece by piece. This was an older topic, so nothing more will be added. and when you understand one, then the next is usually understood more quickly, That's why the correct order of learning is so important and I am so glad that I am here justinguitar ended up 8 months ago.
But I'm guessing you already knew this.
Every one, a lot of FUN 8) with this stuff ,and the rest, Greetings and see you soon,
Rogier
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: batwoman on May 06, 2021, 04:31:27 am
And Batwoman, piece by piece. This was an older topic, so nothing more will be added. and when you understand one, then the next is usually understood more quickly, That's why the correct order of learning is so important and I am so glad that I am here justinguitar ended up 8 months ago.
But I'm guessing you already knew this.
Every one, a lot of FUN 8) with this stuff ,and the rest, Greetings and see you soon,
Rogier

Thanks Rogier I'm glad you're here too  :)

I'm working with the following courses at the moment:
Beginner course, currently module 13
PMT  5.2
Major Scale Maestro
Rhythm Maestro
Strumming Techniques
Technique - all the drills in this series of lessons
Ear Training
A singing course I'm doing
Learning how to use the software that came with my new amp
Recording a song I wrote. I need to learn how to record my electric and use the plug in I bought.

plus preparing for my next OM
plus keeping the songs I know fresh and memorized
plus learning two new songs

My brain won't fit any more in right now.  :o
Title: Re: 3rds & Thirds ... an exploration to enjoy
Post by: roger!holland on May 06, 2021, 07:12:10 am
Thanks Maggie  :D
Oooo, that list of yours is very, very long ...
More than enough for the next months,  I also see something on your list that I really have to go after .... Recording now I do it on my looper and then I hold my (bad) phone in front of my amplifier ... yesterday the first time ... sounded not zo good ...and ,lets say,..i need a drumcomputer... ::)
Singing course i`am starting this summer,..first pay the neighbors , sell the cat and collect egg carton :P
But first playing Starwaiy decently  ;D
Every day i`am reading and playing ..too much too remember it all(or even half) , but who cares.
Keeps the brain fit,and keep your brain fit  ;D
Greeting, Rogier