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Suggestion Box => Suggestions for Lessons (Not songs) => Topic started by: jhinchman on June 27, 2018, 08:46:12 pm

Title: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: jhinchman on June 27, 2018, 08:46:12 pm
Hi Justin,

I'd love to see a video on your take of the caged system versus 3nps.

It seems like people who subscribe to the 3nps method really don't like the caged system. There is also a lot of conflicting information on what both of these approaches is and isn't.

The main objections I've heard to caged is that you are just memorizing shapes and it's less ergonomic and consistent than 3nps. Personally, the caged system has been the single biggest help for me in visualizing the fretboard and seeing how chords and scales interact.

When I started taking guitar lessons with an instructor he took the 3nps approach and wasn't able to explain the differences well enough to make sense. The whole experience confused me enough to stop taking lessons and stick with YouTube.

Any insight into the pros and cons of these two theories would be a huge help. Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: Cue Zephyr on June 27, 2018, 09:11:55 pm
Use what works for you. Both of them are tools. None are perfect but they all get the job done. And the job is learning where the notes are on the fretboard.

I use both, because 3nps opens up new ways to get to notes.
Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: Majik on June 28, 2018, 09:39:28 am
I use 3NPS for scales, but I love CAGED.

Because CAGED directly reflects how the guitar is tuned and, frankly, you cannot avoid using it unless you substantially change the tuning of the guitar.

If you play open chords, you are using CAGED. If you play common barre chords, you are using CAGED. If you are using arpeggios you are using CAGED. If you are using pentatonic scale patterns you are using CAGED.

Because CAGED is how the guitar is tuned.

3NPS scales make some sense over using CAGED shape scales, but the reverse applies also.

A big advantage of CAGED scale shapes is that they perfectly match with all of the other CAGED stuff you will be doing: pentatonic shapes, chords, arpeggios. Another advantage is there's only 5 shapes to learn, instead of 7.

For people new to the guitar I would personally recommend CAGED scales over 3NPS because of that.

But 3NPS are scale shapes that need to be memorized just as much as if you use CAGED scale shapes. Saying that 3NPS is better in this respect is silly, because it's not. If anything it's worse as there is more to learn.

I wouldn't say that either is inherently "better" than the other. It's equally possible to get "trapped" in both.

As Cue says, 3NPS can help reach other parts of the fretboard, but so can learning how to connect and transition between CAGED shapes. 3NPS fingering is also great for longer legato runs. If you are studying music theory then it has some useful parallels with that.

But CAGED is essential: it's how the guitar is tuned. CAGED scale shapes, on the other hand, are optional.

If you are learning 3NPS then one of the best things you can do is start to learn how 3NPS scales relate to CAGED chord shapes so you can start to join things up.



Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: stitch101 on June 28, 2018, 03:13:48 pm
Down load a file with the CAGED scale shapes and one with the 3NPS and print
them out so you can lay one over the other. You will see how the two systems
over lap and relate to each other.
You'll see it's not a case of which one is better it's a case of which one works better
for what I'm playing.
I recommend learning CAGED for the reasons Keith layed out in his post. I'd also
recommend learning scale extention. Running one CAGED shape into the next to
move along the neck not up and down.
Once you learn how the CAGED shapes work along the neck the 3NPS will make
sense and why people use them for soloing. So don't look at the two systems as
one is better, look at them as tools to make your playing better.
If you use your ears when playing instead of patterns you'll find yourself using both
systems without thinking about it.
Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: close2u on June 28, 2018, 11:28:14 pm
Wisdom from majik and stitch
Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: jhinchman on June 29, 2018, 04:02:28 am
Thank you all for the input.

I've been leaning toward the same conclusion. It does seem silly to put down one method instead of integrating both into whatever works for the individual.
Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: Majik on July 01, 2018, 01:41:58 am
A lot of the 3NPS Vs CAGED stuff is, IMO from:

* People who really don't understand how guitar tuning and music in general works
* People who are trying to sell you something

Often it is a combination of the two.

For some people the 3NPS scale shapes system seems to "click" with them more than the CAGED scales shapes.

Personally I suspect this is down to how it is taught rather than anything about the two systems specifically.

IME people who try to tell you that 3NPS is a distinct and better system compared to CAGED  are probably snake-oil salesmen trying to sell you something.

The reality is they are related and complementary systems.

Really CAGED and 3 NPS are simply different fingering patterns for the exact same notes on the fretboard.



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Title: Re: Caged v. 3nps
Post by: CT on July 01, 2018, 03:10:52 am
I'm not an accomplished musician by any stretch, but I know what I like and what I don't like in terms of tone and lead playing. The patterns, including pentatonic, that stay in the same four fret vertical zone are musical dead ends for me. I get bored very fast with those, regardless of the concept. So I keep an open mind about methods that allow me to explore the fretboard horizontally. Right now I use major and minor pentatonic scales a lot as there is some clear/simple logic that allows me to traverse up, down and across the fretboard with very little thought - it's almost automatic for me now. I can see where the 3 notes per string concept would suit me just fine, and looks to be a nice tool to have on my tool belt. It wouldn't be one verses the other for me:

Last night I was out playing with folks and someone started in with "Sweet Melissa" in the key of E Major. I was able to pull off a reasonable lead improv by jumping to a triad (CAGED) up the neck and then traversed across the fretboard with pentatonics from there. CAGED and pentatonic scales are giving me great mileage, but venturing out more into modes and 3 notes per string would be natural progressions.

EDIT: I use this kind of system for traversing the fretboard with pentatonics: