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General Guitar Learning Discussions => General Questions => Topic started by: batwoman on February 12, 2018, 05:14:13 am

Title: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 12, 2018, 05:14:13 am
Chet and two of his students are playing simple open chords and making melodies. It's a nice, slow pace. I like this to practice my scales with this master. It makes me happy to jam with Chet. He also teaches Country Road. Found some simple ideas for fingerpicking in this.




Hope this is OK to post on Justin's site.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 12, 2018, 10:08:28 am
nice find
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: Joerfe on February 12, 2018, 01:10:28 pm
Bookmarked!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 12, 2018, 01:40:55 pm
Bookmarked!
+1, really like the simplicity and how good it sounds!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: MrBumble on February 12, 2018, 02:21:36 pm
I've booked this too. Thanks for sharing it.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 12, 2018, 04:34:09 pm
Lovely. Clearly I have a ways to before I'll find that simple  :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 12, 2018, 09:54:12 pm
Lovely. Clearly I have a ways to before I'll find that simple  :)

David I've broken it down into bite sized pieces. I've gone as far as making an audio recording of the first little bit and looping it (not sure that's how you say it?) I slowed it down till I could play good, clean notes. I'm singing/learning the note names as I go. I've also recorded the next bit and slowed it down. Still working on this one. There's so much material in this video, some of it beyond me at this stage, so its baby steps right now. It will be a thrill the day I can play along at tempo, singing all the notes. That's my goal. 

With your recording knowledge I'm sure this will be an easy thing to do. To slow it down, I'm using 'change speed' in the Effects menu in Audacity.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: phx1973 on February 13, 2018, 01:34:51 am
Thanks for this, Batwoman. I bookmarked it too! You can really hear that Nashville sound people talk about with him, especially in the Country Roads tutorial. Mr. Guitar!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 13, 2018, 04:48:02 am
Thanks Batwoman

Must remember this "break it down, slow it down" strategy.

Maybe what I will do is record a few chords that I can use as a backing to do something similar with the A minor pentatonic than I am focussed on.

I assume Am would be one  ;D  and a D or a Dm?  Maybe should just start with Am ... start real small, the  1 b3 5 of that chord.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 13, 2018, 09:32:52 am
This will help David, I don’t know if you have looked at it yet but it’s well worth learning, especially when you start trying to transcribe!


Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 13, 2018, 04:00:58 pm
Thanks Darrell.  I've heard of it but not something I've got into studying yet.

What I did pick-up from the video is that an interval is measured by the number of notes between two notes, including both notes.  I was intuitively thinking that the interval would be the number of notes, excluding the first note.  That is why A to C is a third. 

And then the minor or major is determined by looking at the end note in the major scale of the first note.  In this case of A to C it is a minor third since in the A major scale the C note is a C#.  Therefore in this interval it is flattened by a semi-tone, which makes it a minor.

So A to B would be a major second?

Lots to learn  :)

Meanwhile, didn't pick up anything in this to give me a pointer as to what chords I should be playing if I want to start playing my A minor pentatonic (at the 5th fret as instructed in BC stage 7) over a chord progression.  Maybe I should be playing Am and C?  Would it work to play other chords in the C maj scale, such as Dm and Em?  I assume that would work if I was playing the C maj scale, but not sure about this given I am using a minor pentatonic.

And this has now become a hijack, I think ...

Darn, I did it again ...
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 13, 2018, 04:07:48 pm
Right David, you can play Am Dm Em C F and G and 7ths if needed.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 14, 2018, 01:32:35 am
Useful David, not a hi-jack at all. Chet would be pleased  :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 14, 2018, 04:52:05 am
Thanks Batwoman  ;)

As I was thinking more about chords to start using the A minor pentatonic, considering Darrell's inputs, I found the following site.  Useful for me, maybe also for others ...

https://jguitar.com/ (https://jguitar.com/)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 14, 2018, 07:56:57 am
David, for the very early fumblings with A minor pent, if you're not going for blues licks, stick to just a two chord loop and dwell on each of the five notes to hear its character and quality, then slowly play some simple multi-note passages. Or, G Major scale and a simple 2-3 chord loop.

Notice in the video that one of the students is literally just playing the C Major scale up and down slowly, the other is chording whilst Chet does nothing elaborate and he simply sticks to the notes of the C Major scale ... which notes and when is the key.

ps

get the Practical Music Theory for all sorts of intervallic goodness.
 :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 14, 2018, 04:04:06 pm
Thanks Richard

I think I will try and keep it simple for now, rather than getting into trying to play blues.  So I am assuming that Am and C on a loop should be fine? 

Also think Am, Dm & Em sequence might work?  When just playing the scale notes up and down and messing about a bit, I think I have heard phrases that sound a little St James Infirmary Blues like, which I play with those chords.

I have not officially reached the maj scale yet ... but did learn that years ago.  So could also work on that  as an option, extra fun.  Then would guess that a G, Am & C loop should work?

Your point as to which notes and when is well noted (terrible pun that should probably have been deleted).

I do have PMT but not a long way into yet.  Certainly not as far as intervals.

Thanks for the pointers.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 14, 2018, 10:23:34 pm
Notice in the video that one of the students is literally just playing the C Major scale up and down slowly, the other is chording whilst Chet does nothing elaborate and he simply sticks to the notes of the C Major scale ... which notes and when is the key.

Close thanks for breaking this down so clearly. I'm at the slowly playing the C Major scale up and down and I won't move on from there till every note is sweet. Your input in so valuable  :)

get the Practical Music Theory for all sorts of intervallic goodness.

This sounds like a song about outer space. Noting it in my music book. Plagarism? Hey  8)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 14, 2018, 10:27:42 pm
Note to self ... come back to this thread to discuss the C Major scale played around the C chord shape vs the Major scale shape forms of CAGED & 3 notes per string ...
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 14, 2018, 10:40:45 pm
Note to self ... come back to this thread to discuss the C Major scale played around the C chord shape vs the Major scale shape forms of CAGED & 3 notes per string ...

Oh Self, I look forward to that. Thankyou. I hope your PA has taken note  :)  This is mind expanding and I LOVE IT. Makes me very happy.

Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 15, 2018, 10:52:26 pm
Self ...


Chet demonstrates where to find and play the notes of the C Major scale (no sharps or flats) starting with a G note on the 1st string at fret 3 dropping all the way down to the root note C at fret 3 of the A string.
Of course he could have continued and played descending notes B and A on the 5th string then G, F and E on the 6th string. That would have showed all C Major scale notes available on the open strings and the first three frets.
The way he shows he does not start on the root note but does end on it.
These notes all fit around an open C chord shape. Does that mean it is equivalent to the 'C' shape from the CAGED system of chord shapes and scale patterns?
Yes, yes, yes oh yes.

CAGED is an easy name to speak out loud but EDCAG is the order Justin and others teach. The five letters derive from the open chord shapes of those letters ... E chord, D chord, C chord, A chord, G chord.  So that means the C chord and the Major scale shape around it is Major scale pattern 3.
See the diagram on this this page. (https://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-253-MajorScalePattern3.php)
The diagram has a line of tabbed notes with number 1 (notes normally played with the first finger) which you have to replace with open string notes (notes formed by the nut). And if you haven't seen it before look carefully to see the C chord shape sitting within that diagram.

Knowing the notes up to fret 3 is a good thing. And playing around with the notes from the C Major scale in this easy, accessible way is, imho, an enjoyable way of learning to play simple melodic passages over a chord progression in the key of C. The way Chet plays and uses it is charming.
I don't know the context of all he is teaching before and after this. But I would hazard a guess it involves a different learning approach to Justin's - maybe involving some note and tab reading, some melodies and some chords.


An underlying benefit of CAGED is learning moveable scale patterns around moveable chord shapes. Or moveable chord shapes within moveable scale patterns. There are five interlinking and overlapping patterns that spread up and down the entire fretboard, including octave repeats of some. But each pattern has its lowest position using all fretted notes ... beyond which if you move lower down the neck towards the nut you will need to incorporate open strings to play the full patterns. This also necessitates using different fingerings. Take the C shape chord / pattern 3 I have already been discussing. When you learn Major scale pattern 3 in, say the G Major scale sequence, you learn to play with finger positions matching those in the diagram linked above. If you play pattern 3 of the C Major scale then you can do so starting with your finger 1 at fret 12 and use the exact matching fingering already learned. But you can also play it at the open position. And this can be a bit of a mind melt at first because you play it differently and you get all in a muddle.
The point I'm making is that Chet's lesson is fine and usable and fun but should not be seen as a lead-in lesson to learning the Major scale with the CAGED system. Just because the 'open string' pattern is not moveable and slightly anomalous to the overall system. Have fun playing around with all that this video lesson reveals ... and there is a lot behind the apparent simplicity.

Chet plays three notes on the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th strings ... and could easily play three on the 6th string too if he hadn't stopped at the lowest root note. So, is he showing a 3 notes per string 3NPS scale pattern?
Short answer - no.
The name is as the name does. You play three notes on all strings in a system of moveable and interlocking patterns.
Chet's shape is a CAGED shape ... pattern 3 ... not a 3NPS shape.




More later.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 16, 2018, 12:36:28 am
Self ...
More later.

Wow Self, you've outdone yourself here. I've copied all this into my music book. Rooly, rooly good stuff. Thankyou very much for taking the time to share this Close. Legend.

I intend looking for more of Chet's lessons, so will let share any that I find that seem relevant. I could spend all day watching YouTube videos. Need to get back to my guitar for a while and integrate what I'm learning.

And this can be a bit of a mind melt at first because you play it differently and you get all in a muddle.

Yep familiar with the mind melt and muddles as well as melt downs and hissy fits  ;D
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 16, 2018, 07:35:19 am
I’ve got to say that this thread has become a great reference for learning and it’s a great opportunity to learn important things to know that will definitely improve your understanding of how to put together melodies, it’s been something I’ve always struggled with but am beginning to realise what I had missed learning!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 16, 2018, 12:39:05 pm
More ... part 1.

The chord progression that Chet uses for the 'scale tune' (starting at 1min 35secs)  is at a nice slow 4/4 tempo



||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||



Here it is with the count added.




    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4   
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||



To benefit from this I recommend you play and record a loop of this.

The 1st student is playing the chords using a simple finger picking pattern which you could follow.

Or you could play a 1, 2 or 4 strum per bar pattern.

Or a pick strum pick strum pattern to give you a bass note on counts 1 and 3.

You could play the Root note on counts 1 and 3 for all chords.

Or you could do pick strum pick strum but change the bass note that you pick thus:

Root then 4th string on the C and Am

Root then 3rd string on the Dm

Root then 4th string on the G7

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 16, 2018, 10:55:50 pm
More ... part 1.
Does that make sense?

Sure does make sense Close. You are an excellent teacher. I've gained and learned so much from this thread and all your input. Many, many thanks  :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 12:48:50 am
More ... part 2.

Chet is using the C Major scale over a chord progression so that chord progression must surely be in the key of C right?
Well, yes, of course.

Here is the C Major scale in a linear notation with a repeat so it spans two octaves.

R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C


The chords in the progression are all made from notes in the C Major scale:


C  = C, E, G
Dm = D, F, A
G7 = G, B, D, F
Am = A, C, E


If you do not already know about simple chord construction then look carefully at each group of notes within the chords, then find those same notes as laid out in the line of notes in the C Major scale.
There should be something you notice ... a pattern, a sequence, a common feature that they share.




Are you still struggling to see it?
If so, look at this ...





C  = C, E, G
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




Dm = D, F, A
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




G7 = G, B, D, F
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C




Am = A, C, E
R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C





Do you now see how the very make up and structure of those chords stem directly from notes of the C Major scale, notes that appear in the C Major scale at regular spacing / intervals?

Yes?
Fantastic.

These regular intervals taken from the scale are called 'stacked 3rds' because the chords are made up from a simple pattern thus:
(for each given start note) use the 1st note, skip the next note - the 2nd - then use the 3rd note. The 3rd note becomes the new 1st, skip the 2nd, use the 3rd. Stacked 3rds. All built on notes taken from the same scale.

Does this make sense?
If so you are beginning to connect the C Major scale with chords in the key of C. And you are beginning to see something fundamental about chord construction itself.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 17, 2018, 12:58:02 am
Close you are on fire! Perhaps an antidote to the artic chill, or cabin fever brought on by the cold? I now have four pages of gold. This will keep me busy for a long time. Biggest thanks and appreciation for sharing some of your knowledge and another good vibe. You are a gem  :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 17, 2018, 05:28:24 am
Richard,

I can but echo Batwoman's sentiment.  Super generous of you to take the time to lay this out here. Sure you could have said "Get a copy of PMT, check out structure of major scale, construction of chords and come back with feedback and questions"

I learn best by playing back my understanding. So given the way this thread has evolved, I don't feel I'm hijacking now...

The chord progression could be described as I I II II V7 V7 I I VI VI II II V7 V7 I I ... yes?

If so I could play it in G using G Am Dm7 Em ... yes?

I could play the G maj scale with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5. I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it. And imaging the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

I'd do it this way, rather than in C, to learn the moveable major scale pattern and to exercise Dm7 chord (a tricky little sucker, for me, with the first finger mini barre on 1st fret).

How does that sound?

Once again, many many thanks.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 17, 2018, 08:17:48 am
Good vibes Richard, nice and clearly explained - certainly are a good teacher!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 08:39:23 am
@ David ...
Quote
The chord progression could be described as I I II II V7 V7 I I VI VI II II V7 V7 I I ... yes?
Yes, but you wouldn't normally write the same chord twice in succession and you would use lower case for the minor chords - it would more normally be written: I ii V7 I vi ii V7 I

Quote
If so I could play it in G using G Am Dm7 Em ... yes?

You're mostly right with only a small correction to make.

Every scale is written using just seven letters, in order, with no letter repeated.
Look at the C Major and G Major scales mapped out below - with chords attached for the C Major scale. I will leave it to you to correct your error.

                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
C Major scale = C,  D,  E,  F,  G,  A,  B,   C
                C   Dm          G7  Am

                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
G Major scale = G,  A,  B,  C,  D,  E,  F#,  G
                G   Am         Dm7  Em


Quote
I could play the G maj scale with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5. I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it.

Yes.

Quote
And imaging the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

No.

Quote
I'd do it this way, rather than in C, to learn the moveable major scale pattern

That makes sense as a great exercise to begin to learn use and make music with the G Major scale and learning the 1st pattern of the CAGED system of Major scale patterns. The pattern you seek is the 1st one to learn but it is not a G shape. I'll leave that as an unanswered question just for now.
You've also preempted something I was planning on adding to this thread a little later on so can you bear with me for a short time for more information relating to G Major?

Quote
and to exercise Dm7 chord (a tricky little sucker, for me, with the first finger mini barre on 1st fret).
Hopefully you've corrected your Dm7 error above.
Not to worry - practicing this chord is a great idea so what about this.
Take the original chord progression in C that Chet uses and substitute the Dm for a Dm7. Whenever you have a minor chord, you can substitute a minor7 chord. You could substitute Am7 in that original chord progression too if you want to practice that chord - especially the full four-finger version with 4th finger on the 3rd fret top e string.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 09:37:38 am
More ... part 3.

David's post contained questions about chords and I want to add in a little more on the chord progression in C that Chet uses for a moment.

As described in the post above, the progression is:
I ii V7 I vi ii V7 I 


Or, if you split it equally you can view it as two successive progressions:

I  ii  V7  I          C  Dm  G7  C

vi ii  V7  I          Am Dm  G7  C


There are some advantages to viewing it as a progression in two halves. Both sections are identical apart from the starting chord. Both sections conclude with a G7 chord moving to a C chord (a V7 to a I movement).

Small aside - do you hear how this ending of G7 to C just sounds right, complete, at peace with itself? This specific movement from V7 chord to I chord is called a closed cadence or authentic cadence. I'm not going to spend time on that theory just now, I only mention it to encourage you to listen to how wonderful that resolution sounds, how the progression just seems to sonically pull you in to a happy place as it moves from G7 to C.


By now you should have that progression nicely in mind, in your ears and under your fingers. Hopefully you have recorded a loop to play over.

Let's move forward and anticipate the 'scale tune' by laying out the chord progression again, this time with the constituent notes of each chord written above.




    (C E G)              (D F A)
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


   (G B D F)             (C E G)
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    (A C E)              (D F A)
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


   (G B D F)             (C E G)
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||

The idea in setting the progression out this way is to connect the chords which should be very familiar with their constituent notes - which as described above all derive from the C Major scale. Do not get too hung up on the notes above each chord as separate notes, but view them as small groups that work well together.

Does that make sense?

In subsequent posts, it will be important to try to think of single notes rather than as groups making up chords. Single notes that sit within any of these chords when they appear in the progression and single notes that are being played as part of the 'scale tune' that Chet and the student plays in the video.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 17, 2018, 09:59:52 am
Thanks Richard

Little letters for minor chords and not repeating chords ... got you

Careless, not paying attention ... should be D7

Not stressing about which pattern it is in CAGED.

Replaced minor with minor 7th ... got you.

And as it happens, I fly out to the USA this evening, so no guitar for a week.  But when I return shall move to record loops and get going with this ... I think it is time ... sort of BC stage 9?  Whatever :)  Meanwhile, not playing for 8 days is going to be my longest gap since I started the BC on 16 Dec 2016  :'(
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 12:00:49 pm
More ... part 4.


It's time to get melodic and begin exploring Chet's 'scale tune'.

Chet demonstrated notes in the key of C available from fret 3 of the e string (note = G) descending to fret 3 of the A string (note = C).
Like this:


e || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 -- ||
B || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 -- ||
G || 0 --   -- 2  --   -- ||
D || 0 --   -- 2  -- 3 -- ||
A || --------------- 3 -- ||
E || -------------------- ||


Hopefully you know your note names on all strings to at least fret 3 so should realise that Chet (deliberately one must assume) omitted a few notes (those that are lower than the Root C note on the 5th string)

For completion here is the full set of notes in the C Major scale up to and including fret 3:


e || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 -- ||
B || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 -- ||
G || 0 --   -- 2  --   -- ||
D || 0 --   -- 2  -- 3 -- ||
A || 0 --   -- 2  -- 3 -- ||
E || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 -- ||


For the first, simplest version of the scale tune, which Chet starts and then encourages his student to also play, he plays descending sequences comprising four groups of nine notes over the chord progression. It starts at the highest note that he has shown, the note G at the 3rd fret of the high e string. It goes like this:


G  F  E  D  C  B  A  G  F
   F  E  D  C  B  A  G  F  E
      E  D  C  B  A  G  F  E  D
         D  C  B  A  G  F  E  D  C


A simple stepped sequence of notes whose iterations always begin and end a note lower than the previous one.
So far so good.
And so mechanical / mathematical almost.
So how come it sounds sweet and musical?
Let's look at those same four groups of nine notes alongside the chord progression.

First, look at the 'scale tune' notes alongside the chords and the 1, 2, 3, 4 count for each bar (every note is played on a count).



    G F E D    C B A G     F   
    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4 
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    F E D C     B A G F   E
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    E D C B     A G F E    D
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    D C B A     G F E D   C
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||


Of course, all of the notes sound just fine, because all of the notes and all of the chords come from the same place - the C Major scale.
So, instead of having four groups of nine notes (=36) notes to perhaps confuse us, let's just focus on two at a time.

Look at the first sequence of nine notes.



    G F E D    C B A G     F   
    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4 
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |

What is the first note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

What is the final note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?



Look at the second sequence of nine notes.


    F E D C     B A G F   E
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


What is the first note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

What is the final note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?



Look at the third sequence of nine notes.


    E D C B     A G F E    D
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


What is the first note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

What is the final note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?



Look at the fourth sequence of nine notes.


    D C B A     G F E D   C
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||


What is the first note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

What is the final note?
What chord is it being played over?
Put the two answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

I hope you can answer these questions and are beginning to see connections between the underlying chords and the eight notes being examined.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: stitch101 on February 17, 2018, 04:23:27 pm
@ Close
David asked
Quote
And imaging the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED
You said
Quote
No

I'd like to know your reasoning on why he can't use the G shape scale. It would be in open position and right
under his fingers.

I don't want to hijack this thread because you're doing a fantastic job explaining what Chet is teaching but
it would be an injustice to David to thi k he can't use the G shape G scale whe playing Chet's lesson in G.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 05:55:03 pm
@ stitch101

Thanks for following and asking a clarifying question.
The fact that you have done so means I wasn't clear enough so I'm happy to try it again.


You ask:
Quote from: stitch101
I'd like to know your reasoning on why he can't use the G shape scale. It would be in open position and right under his fingers.

I hope I can do your question justice.

David's full set of questions - which I edited in my first answer to him - were:

Quote from: DavidP
I could play the G maj scale with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5. I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it. And imagining the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

I was answering with a 'no' only to the very last part of David's questioning. That is to say, the G Major scale pattern he is imagining, one which spans from frets 2 to 5, is not the 'G shape in CAGED'.

So, just to clarify then ...
Quote from: DavidP
The chord progression could be described as I II V7 I VI II V7 I ... yes?  If so I could play it in G ... yes?  I could play the G maj scale ... ?

Yes.

Quote from: DavidP
... with root note on 3rd fret with middle finger and rest of the notes on frets 2 3 4 5 ... ?

Yes.

Quote from: DavidP
...  I gather this would then be the scale in a particular position or pattern that has a specific number to reference it ... ?

Yes.

Quote from: DavidP
And imagining the pattern in my mind's eye, it would it be the G shape in CAGED?

No.


That particular pattern - the first one you will be taught as and when you move to study the Major scale -  is an E-shape pattern in CAGED, not a G-shape.
It is pattern 1 when CAGED is altered to read as EDCAG - which matches the order they are taught in.

Heads-up ...
As I mentioned to David, as I extend this analysis in subsequent posts, I do intend moving on to exploring a chord progression parallel to Chet's in the key of G. And, of course, looking at playing melodic phrases over it with a G Major scale pattern that uses open strings and notes up to fret 3 only (not frets 2-5 as David is describing).

If you're already treading that path - fantastic! Go for it.

I'm going to continue mining this rich seam and squeezing a little more musical juice from the C Major fruit first.

Look at me - mixing my metaphors! Ha ha.
I'm so excited at how one seemingly simple section of a youtube video can contain so much of worth. Who would have thought that a few chords and a sequence of linear notes could yield such bounty!




@ stitch ... does that clear things up for you?
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: stitch101 on February 17, 2018, 06:25:02 pm
I figured there was more to you answer. You usually give an explanation with your answers so just saying "No"
caught me off guard.
I'll butt out and let you continue. Great job breaking this lesson into bite size chunks. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 17, 2018, 06:54:25 pm
More ... part 5.

If you were finding the last section of part 4 difficult, not making connections between chords in the progression and notes in the melody, not seeing significant overlaps, then this might help.

Ideally you should have been reading the posts with guitar in hand, playing the chords, playing the melody over the chords, cross-referencing one to the other.
Maybe you have also been writing things down on paper to help with your thinking.

If you want to obtain the maximum learning and insight, and don't yet understand everything, then try interacting with the practical aspects of these posts before reading further.








Okay ... supporting material to help with the content of part 4.


Here is the 'scale tune' and the chord progression lined up once again - this time with the numbers of the count removed for easier reading.



     G F E D    C B A G    F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    F E D C      B A G F   E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |


    E D C B      A G F E    D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |


    D C B A      G F E D   C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||


I suggested that the focus be only on the first and last notes from each of the four groups of nine notes. So I am now going to temporarily delete all other notes.



     G                     F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |

    F                      E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |

    E                      D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |

    D                      C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||



Okay so far?

If so, then this next step should be straightforward.
For each chord in the progression, I am going to add its constituent notes under the chords.
So, you will see three rows.
The upper row will be the first and last notes of each of the four groups of nine notes.
The second row will be the bars with chords and the / markers representing the four beats per bar.
The bottom row will be the notes that make up each chord (see previous posts for these).



     G                     F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
     (C E G)               (D F A)

    F                      E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |
   (G B D F)               (C E G)

    E                      D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
   (A C E)                 (D F A)

    D                      C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||
  (G B D F)                (C E G)


I am hoping that there is now something so clear and obvious that you see it in an instant.

If not, I am going to put in a real give-away hint using bold / coloured font.

So, this is the same diagram as immediately above with certain notes emboldened and depicted in red.


     G                     F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
     (C E G)               (D F A)

    F                      E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |
   (G B D F)               (C E G)

    E                      D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
   (A C E)                 (D F A)

    D                      C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||
  (G B D F)                (C E G)



Okay?

Good.

Now, let's return to some questions previously asked, and add some more.

For each of the four groups of nine notes (remember, I have deleted all but the first and last in the diagrams above):

What is the first note?
What chord is it being played over?
What notes make up that chord?
Put the answers together - do you find any significant overlap?

What is the final note?
What chord is it being played over?
What notes make up that chord?
Put the answers together - do you find any significant overlap?




WOW.

WOW.

Just WOW.

For each of the four groups of nine notes, the first and the last note is ALWAYS a note in the underlying chord.

WOW.



This is the genius of Chet's lesson.
Without mentioning it, without adding in confusing segments of theory, and with seemingly no effort whatever, he has devised a masterpiece of guitar tuition.
A chord progression in the key of C.
An easily played set of notes that make up the C Major scale.
A descending set of notes from that scale that are no more than a simple linear sequence to play over the chords.
And hey presto - music, sweet and melodic music.

What he undoubtedly knows, and isn't making a fuss about, is that he is performing that 'magic trick' of targeting chord tones when playing his 'scale tune'.

Targeting chord tones.
It's just so, so simple.


I tip my hat to Chet in this.
Youtube and the interweb are full of videos by guitar gurus promising you 100% satisfaction in your guitar playing if you just target chord tones when you're playing a solo. Some are awful, some okay and some are good. I suggest that none does it so simply as Chet does here.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 18, 2018, 02:01:22 am
To quote you Close ...

Wow
WOW
WOW, WOW, WOW

and again, I say THANKYOU.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: Matek on February 18, 2018, 07:13:12 am
Thanks for the lessons Close.
I will save this and go through it slowly

Sent from my [device_name] using JustinGuitar Community mobile app (http://JustinGuitar Community mobile app)

Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 18, 2018, 10:08:02 am
Thanks for the thanks.

I hope that you are following along and maybe picking up something useful.

Please continue to comment, feedback, engage.

 :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 18, 2018, 11:18:24 am
More ... part 6.

We have now made connections between the chords, the notes and the melody being played in 'scale tune'. At least the first part of the melody. Chet progresses to play additional parts and I have only analysed the very first part. I will linger a while longer on that first part before moving on.


Part 5 ended with the first / final notes of 'scale tune' being shown in red as 'chord tones'.
That is the start point for exploring here and doing so in a variety of ways.

First, I'm now going to put all the notes back in to the diagram and look to see if there are other chord tones that happen along the way.

Here is the 'scale tune' and the chord progression lined up once again with all of the four groups of nine notes shown.
All of the chord tones are emboldened and shown in red font.
You should by now be comfortable with the notes that make up each chord. I still include them in brackets under the diagram but revert to just presenting them in black font for clarity and to maintain focus on the notes from the 'scale tune' above the chords.



     G F E D    C B A G    F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
     (C E G)               (D F A)

    F E D C      B A G F   E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |
   (G B D F)               (C E G)

    E D C B      A G F E    D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
   (A C E)                 (D F A)

    D C B A      G F E D   C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||
  (G B D F)                (C E G)


The first thing to notice is that there are lots of scale tones. Lots and lots.
Do you remember mention being made of those stacked thirds when looking at chord construction?
I wonder if you can trace a link from there to here?



Second, I'm going to encourage you to use this as a start point to being creative and making up your own 'scale tunes'. So, I'm going to remove every note that is not a chord tone and replace it with a ?.
I suggest that you actually write out on paper your own scale tunes, literally write them out as pieces of music you have composed and will then play. You need to replace each ? with a note from the C Major scale, making sure it is a different note to the one Chet played. Do this in several different ways and when you play your compositions, make sure you use your ears carefully to listen for what works well

With the entire chord progression mapped out it looks like this:


     G ? E ?    C ? ? G    F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
     (C E G)               (D F A)

    F ? D ?      B ? G ?   E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |
   (G B D F)               (C E G)

    E ? C ?      A ? F ?    D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
   (A C E)                 (D F A)

    D ? B ?      G F ? D   C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||
  (G B D F)                (C E G)


You may find it easier to write as a simple list of notes something like this:


G  ?  E  ?  C  ?  ?  G  F   
   F  ?  D  ?  B  ?  G  ?  E
      E  ?  C  ?  A  ?  F  ?  D 
         D  ?  B  ?  G  F  ?  D  C

 
Here is the original set of 36 notes if you want to have them side by side as you compose your own variations.

G  F  E  D  C  B  A  G  F
   F  E  D  C  B  A  G  F  E
      E  D  C  B  A  G  F  E  D
         D  C  B  A  G  F  E  D  C


I have deliberately restricted the space that you are working in to just those notes that are not chord tones, which is just 16 out of 36. That is still a lot of creative space and I hope that you repeat the exercise, changing the notes each time. I'm hoping too that you started off by physically writing out the notes and then playing them along with the chord progression (you have recorded a backing track loop haven't you?). I'm also hoping that you very quickly go beyond the act of writing them down on paper to spontaneously playing your own notes based around all of those chord tones in an improvisational wonderland.
How is it sounding?
Are you making good music?
Are you using the Major scale to improvise, create, play melodic lead guitar?



Third, it is now time to enlarge the creative space, to have freedom to mix and blend yet more colours on your musical palette. So, let's go back to considering the diagram showing just the first and final notes of the 'scale tune' in red and let's replace all of the other notes with a ?.


     G ? ? ?    ? ? ? ?    F   
 ||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
     (C E G)               (D F A)

    F ? ? ?      ? ? ? ?   E
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |
   (G B D F)               (C E G)

    E ? ? ?      ? ? ? ?   D
 | Am / / /   | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |
   (A C E)                 (D F A)

    D ? ? ?      ? ? ? ?   C
 | G7 / / /   | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||
  (G B D F)                (C E G)

Again, you may find it easier to just write your notes out as a simple list.


G  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  F 
   F  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  E
      E  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  D 
         D  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  C


The task now (should I say the fun now?) is to improvise, guided only by the security that every time you begin and end each of the four passages, you will be landing on a chord tone. Where you go as you make your musical journey of exploration around the C Major scale is up to you. You're starting from a safe place and returning to a safe place as you play your four groups of nine notes. Have fun.


 :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 18, 2018, 12:00:02 pm
More ... part 7.

A short study around chord tones.

At the end of part 6 you were playing scale tunes where the first and final notes were the chord tones of Chet's original melody. These notes are played on the first beat, the count of 1, of a chord change.

In the progression, each chord lasts for two bars.
Each of the four groups contains nine notes.
So notes 1-4 are played over counts 1, 2, 3 and 4 of a chord the during the first of its two bars.
Notes 5-8 are played over counts 1, 2, 3, 4 of the same chord during its second bar.
Note 9 is played over count 1 of a new chord at the time of a chord change.
Then there is a rest during counts 2, 3, 4 and 1, 2, 3, 4 of that new chord.
As soon as the next chord change comes along, with a new count of 1, a new chord tone is played.

This is targeting the chord tones.
Consciously playing a note from the underlying chord when the chord change happens.

So notes 1 and 9, the first and final notes of each group of four, are examples of targeting the chord tones.

I also showed in part 6 that there are other chord tones being played throughout the progression. When chord tones are played during the progression, but not at the moment of a chord change, this can be described as outlining the chord tones, or outlining the chords.

So, we now have two simple aspects to using chord tones.
1] Playing a chord tone on beat 1 as the chord changes - targeting the chord tone in this way can help connect the lead melody with the movement of the chord progression.
2] Playing a chord tone at any point over a chord - outlining the chords helps to more strongly tie the melody to the chord progression.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 18, 2018, 03:29:40 pm
More ... part 8.

At 2mins 22 secs in the video Chet invites his student to continue playing the four groups of nine notes (which is shown in the lower half of the video screen) and he then moves up a notch and starts to play something more elaborate (shown in the upper half of the video pane).

So what is Chet doing?

First, he has gone from playing quarter notes (4 per bar played on the count of 1, 2, 3, 4) to eighth notes (8 per bar played on the 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &).
Second, he has maintained the exact same notes as before played on the beats, but introduced something new played in between each of those, on the '&' each time.
So instead of four groups of nine notes he now has four groups of seventeen notes.

Let's look at that.
Here is the original section of the 'scale tune' as previously shown - with extra spacing between notes and between rows that will allow me to add in the extra notes that Chet is playing and to see what he is doing.

G   F   E   D   C   B   A   G   F

    F   E   D   C   B   A   G   F   E

        E   D   C   B   A   G   F   E   D

            D   C   B   A   G   F   E   D    C

In the next diagram I will add in Chet's extra notes on a row under each existing sequence, spaced in between the original notes.
The new notes will be in blue font.

G   F   E   D   C   B   A   G   F
  E   D   C   B   A   G   F   E
    F   E   D   C   B   A   G   F  E
      D   C   B   A   G   F   E   D
        E   D   C   B   A   G   F   E   D
          C   B   A   G   F   E   D   C
            D   C   B   A   G   F   E   D   C
              B   A   G   F   E   D   C   B

So to play what Chet is playing you need to play these notes from left to right, reading from two rows, playing black then blue, black then blue with black notes on the 1, 2, 3, 4 and blue notes on the '&'.

This new sequence of extra notes is a parallel set to the original, a sequence of notes from the C Major scale in descending order.
Also note that every move from a black note to the next blue note is a drop of a third (remember those stacked thirds from the chord construction?).
Chet is basically playing the C Major scale, starting on the note G, in descending thirds.
And because of the chord tone phenomenon it still sounds sweetly musical.

Does that make sense?

If not, maybe this will help.

Here is the C Major scale again:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

Now here is the C Major scale in descending order:
C B A G F E D C B A G F E D C

Now here is the C Major scale in descending order starting at the note G (as Chet does)
and finishing at he note E which matches the lowest available E using the open 6th string on the guitar:
G F E D C B A G F E D C B A G F E


Now here is that same C Major scale with the addition of the notes Chet plays, shown in pairs of thirds.
These pairs are made up of a black note and a blue note side by side, left to right.

G F E D C B A G F E D C B A G F E
G   E
  F   D
    E   C
      D   B
        C   A
          B   G
            A   F
              G   E
                F   D
                  E   C
                    D   B
                      C

Note that I have simply rolled all of the notes, which overlap and double back on themselves in the four groups, into one long stream. This is only for the purpose of illustrating the descending pattern of thirds. Which I hope you can clearly see by referring to the C Major scale shown above them.

Here is a similar diagram but this time split in to the four groups of seventeen notes.

G   E
  F   D
    E   C
      D   B
        C   A
          B   G
            A   F
              G   E
                F

  F   D
    E   C
      D   B
        C   A
          B   G
            A   F
              G   E
                F   D
                  E

    E   C
      D   B
        C   A
          B   G
            A   F
              G   E
                F   D
                  E   C
                    D

      D   B
        C   A
          B   G
            A   F
              G   E
                F   D
                  E   C
                    D   B
                      C


If you play these notes, top-to-bottom, left-to-right, black-to-blue, then you will be playing Chet's second section of the 'scale tune'.
Does that make sense?



Next up will be the third and fourth sections, between 3mins 06 secs and 4mins 32 secs.
But that'll be easy.
He's just playing ascending rather than descending sequences.
No problems there.

Then I'll move on to the G Major scale possibilities.

Phew.

Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 19, 2018, 11:00:25 am
More ... part 9.

Okay, it's time to conclude our study and exploration of Chet's 'scale tune'.

Note: I am not going to consider and analyse Chet's playing from the point where he starts to hold barre chord shapes and play artificial harmonics - that is not beginner stuff.
Plus, I can't play artificial harmonics myself so need to limit my analysis to what I do know!  :)


At 3mins 06 secs Chet changes playing direction and starts to play ascending sequences of notes. Four groups of nine notes at first, quarter notes, all played on the beat. Then four groups of seventeen notes, eighth notes, all played alternately on the beat and the &.

Basically, if you have followed and played, and explored so far then this next step will be an easy one. Chet has just inverted his sequences, with the starting note no longer be the note G but the note E.

Like this:


E F G A B C D E F
   D E F G A B C D E
      C D E F G A B C D
         B C D E F G A B C

Against the chord progression it looks like this:

    E F G A    B C D E     F
    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4 
||: C / / /  | C / / /  | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |

    D E F G     A B C D   E
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |

    C D E F     G A B C   D
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Am / / /  | Am / / / | Dm / / / | Dm / / / |

    B C D E     F G A B   C
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | G7 / / /  | G7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / :||


Notice that the final note in each group is exactly the same as the final notes for the descending sequences. And that the first and final notes can again be seen as 'targeting the chord tones'. So I have put these in red font again.


Then, in the next section, when he starts to play the eighth notes, he once again starts to play the scale in thirds, but ascending thirds.
Like this:


E   G
  F   A
    G   B
      A   C
        B   D
          C   E
            D   F
              E   G
                F

  D   F
    E   G
      F   A
        G   B
          A   C
            B   D
              C   E
                D   F
                  E

    C   E
      D   F
        E   G
          F   A
            G   B
              A   C
                B   D
                  C   E
                    D

      B   D
        C   E
          D   F
            E   G
              F   A
                G   B
                  A   C
                    B   D
                      C


If you play Chet's 'scale tune' you will be developing your ear and developing good muscle memory for the C Major scale in this open position.
That's great.
But it's not the end of it.
The rich learning will come if you take these ideas and modify them.
Create with them.
Take them apart and put them back together.
Really get inside the sounds and the possibilities of playing and experimenting with the C Major scale.
This is just a simple canvas with some feint outlining ready drawn - the chord progression and the targeted chord tones in red.
It is yours to add colour and detail and create your own 'work of art'.
Improvise.
Have fun.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: MrBumble on February 19, 2018, 12:30:20 pm
close2U

I've been following this thread with rapt attention. At the moment it's above my competence level but I know it will be really useful in the future - and to loads of other people too.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make it sticky so that it can be found easily?
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 19, 2018, 01:04:21 pm
Thanks Mr B.
Any and all feedback is welcome so that I know if I'm being clear, my diagrams are clear, and I'm pitching it right.
You say it's a little beyond you just now?
You could try the chord progression (play it through a few times), the scale pattern and the simpler nine note sequences as a start.
 :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DarrellW on February 19, 2018, 01:39:01 pm
+1 for making it a sticky, it’s not been beyond me but is helping me a great deal with things I half understand and I’m sure that it’s going to help me enormously with my attempts at improvising, it’s been one of the things I’ve always wanted to do but never really had any success with!
I’m in the process of doing a backing track to jam along with and see how I get on, many thanks for your hard work!
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 19, 2018, 01:51:22 pm
Richard,

I think it is time firstly for one enormous THANK YOU with icing, sprinkles and a cherry on top !!!

For me, the way you explained made perfect sense. The layout, use of colour and way you built this up was excellent.

I'm far from looking at Justin's MTMS course, but imagine this would be a great compliment to it.

Benefit of 16 hours on a plane...I spent some reading time in PMT. I can see where I went wrong earlier in this thread linking how I wanted to play in G with root on 6 string 3rd fret to CAGED. G shape in CAGED would have root on the 6th string at the 15th fret; right?

And the pattern moving up the fretboard would be EDCAG. D shape root being 4th string 5th fret. And 10th fret 5th string for C and A shapes.

This has been fabulous to trigger some study and give me some direction to step further into the use of scales, melodic patterns and playing melody over chords.

I want to say "I'm in your debt, sir" but know that's nit the spirit here. So shall just say I have unbounded appreciation for what you have contributed here.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: stitch101 on February 19, 2018, 03:29:23 pm
David you can play the G shape G scale in the open position.
Start on the G 3rd fret of the E string. Then play open  A string then B the A string then C
Open D string the E and F# on the D string. You get the idea. The only note that is different from
the pattern is the F# on the D string.
Chet is starting his scale song on the 5th interval of the C major scale. If you want to transpose the song to
G start on the 5th interval ov G major (3rd fret B string) the desending pattern is almost the same notes.
The F# is the only different note.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 19, 2018, 03:44:13 pm
David you can play the G shape G scale in the open position.
Start on the G 3rd fret of the E string. Then play open  A string then B the A string then C
Open D string the E and F# on the D string. You get the idea. The only note that is different from
the patern is the F# on the D string.
Understood Stitch.

Only reason I asked about playing it over frets 2-5 is because I know that pattern, along with minor pentatonic, in A over frets 5-8 as per BC stage 7.

So can concentrate more on notes and playing over chords. And these are the moveable patterns. I find adding open strings a bit trickier.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: stitch101 on February 19, 2018, 04:06:40 pm
They are all movable patterns. You're making it harder than it has to be.
All the patterns of the CAGED system interlink together and all of the pattern
can be played in open position and are very useful when playing open chords.
You can play the scale song in every open chord using the CAGED patterns in
open position.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 19, 2018, 05:01:17 pm
Thanks Stich. I can see the benefits of being able to throw in walk up and down between chords when playing songs solo. And I'd assume tbe notes that will sound best are the notes from the songs scale and key.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on February 20, 2018, 12:01:28 am
More ... part 9.
But it's not the end of it.
The rich learning will come if you take these ideas and modify them.
Create with them.
Take them apart and put them back together.
Really get inside the sounds and the possibilities of playing and experimenting with the C Major scale.
This is just a simple canvas with some faint outlining ready drawn - the chord progression and the targeted chord tones in red.
It is yours to add colour and detail and create your own 'work of art'.
Improvise.
Have fun.

I like this analogy very much. This thread has become a work of art in the hands of Michelangelo Close. You've created something of a Sistene Chapel  :)

Once again, I say THANKS, THANKS, THANKS.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 21, 2018, 12:46:42 pm
More ... part 10.

As previously mentioned, it is now time to take the lesson Chet teaches in C Major and do a little transposing to G Major.
Here is a diagram from a previous post showing how the chords can be numbered to match the notes of the scales.


                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
C Major scale = C,  D,  E,  F,  G,  A,  B,   C
                C   Dm          G7  Am

                R,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,   R
G Major scale = G,  A,  B,  C,  D,  E,  F#,  G
                G   Am          D7  Em

So the chord progression transposed to the key of G would be:



    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4   
||: G / / /  | G / / /  | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | G / / /  | G / / / |

    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Em / / /  | Em / / / | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | G / / /  | G / / / :||


The next step is to know how to play the G major scale in an open position (once again taking the lead from Chet rather then thinking in terms of CAGED and beginning with the first CAGED pattern).
Every note except one can be played using open strings up to fret 3.
That 'rogue' note is an F# which has to be played at fret 4 of the D string.
It means that, strictly speaking, you can't play a 'true' G shape pattern of the G Major scale in open position ... but for all intents and purposes it is playable with this one minor modification.
The G Major scale is:
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G

On the neck it looks like this:

e || 0 -- 2 --    -- 3 --   --  ||
B || 0 -- 1 --    -- 3 --   --  ||
G || 0 --   -- 2  --   --   --  ||
D || 0 --   -- 2  --   -- 4 --  ||
A || 0 --   -- 2  -- 3 --   --  ||
E || 0 -- 2 --    -- 3 --   --  ||

This time there are three G notes (vs the two C notes of the C Major scale) so the scale here spans two full octaves.

Chet's 'scale tune' starts with the note G over a C chord.
Transposing that would have this new scale tune start on the note D over a G chord (played at fret 3 of the B string).
To see why, compare the two scales side by side.
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G

In the C Major scale, G is the fifth note.
In the G Major scale, D is the fifth note.

Now let's consider the four groups of nine descending notes that will start us off.
We now know the whole thing will start at the note D and descend in a limple linear pattern like this:

D C B A G F# E D C
  C B A G F# E D C B
    B A G F# E D C B A
      A G F# E D C B A G

So the new scale tune in G over the chord progression starts:



    D C B A    G F# E D    C   
    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
||: G / / /  | G / / /  | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    C B A G    F# E D C   B
        1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
     | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |

    B A G F#    E D C B    A
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Em / / /  | Em / / / | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    A G F# E    D C B A   G
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | G / / /  | G / / / :||

As before, each time the chord changes, a targeted chord tone is played on the count of 1 (shown in red).
To confirm this, let's just look at the notes that make up each chord.

Here is a two-octave G Major scale.

R 2 3 4 5 6 7  R 2 3 4 5 6 7  R
G A B C D E F# G A B C D E F# G

The chords in the progression are all made from notes in the G Major scale:

G  = G, B,  D
Am = A, C,  E
D7 = D, F#, A, C
Em = E, G,  B

Confirmation - the first and final notes are chord tones.

Note: this chord construction again shows the stacked thirds.


I'm going to change the order of learning slightly from the C Major lessons and go straight from the descending four groups of nine descending notes to the four groups of nine ascending notes.
After that I will look at both sequences of seventeen descending / ascending notes.
Chet starts his ascending sequences on the note C, the third note of the C Major scale.
So, with reference to the G Major scale above, we would start this with the note B, fret 2 of the A string.
Like this:

B C D E F# G A B C
  A B C D E F# G A B
    G A B C  D E F# G A
      F# G A B C D E F G

With the chord progression it would be:



    B C D E    F# G A B    C   
    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
||: G / / /  | G / / /  | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    A B C D     E F# G A  B
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | C / / /  | C / / / |

    G A B C    D E F# G    A
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | Em / / /  | Em / / / | Am / / / | Am / / / |

    F# G A B    C D E F#  G
    1 2 3 4     1 2 3 4   1 2 3 4    1 2 3 4
 | D7 / / /  | D7 / / / | G / / /  | G / / / :||


Now to consider the descending and ascending sequences four groups of seventeen notes.
Once again, these are played in pairs, as descending and ascending pairs of thirds, with the same first and final notes as the simpler nine note sequences.
If you have understand previous posts you should follow if I move directly to the actual sequences.

First, a descending sequence, starting on the note D, at fret 3 of the B string.

D   B
  C   A
    B   G
      A   F#
        G   E
          F#  D
            E   C
              D   B
                C
C   A
  B   G
    A   F#
      G   E
        F#  D
          E   C
            D   B
              C   A
                B
B   G
  A   F#
    G   E
      F#  D
        E   C
          D   B
            C   A
              B   G
                A
A   F#
  G   E
    F#  D
      E   C
        D   B
          C   A
            B   G
              A   F#
                G

And finally, an ascending sequence, starting on the note B at fret 2 of the A string.

B   D
  C   E
    D   F#
      E   G
        F#  A
          G   B
            A  C
              B  D
               C
A   C
  B   D
    C   E
      D  F#
        E  G
         F#  A
           G   B
             A   C
               B
G   B
  A   C
    B   D
      C   E
        D   F#
          E   G
            F#  A
              G   B
                A
F#  A
  G   B
    A   C
      B   D
        C   E
          D   F#
            E   G
              F#   A
                G



Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on February 21, 2018, 01:02:07 pm
More ... part 11.

These sequences of notes should be seen as just the starting point for your own explorations of how a scale can be used to play melody / lead lines over a chord progression.

It is not about playing fast.
It is not about playing killer licks and riffs.

It is about playing steady tempo quarter and eighth notes (at least as a start point).

It is about targeting the chord tones at the start and finish (at least as a start point).

It is about listening to the notes, to which ones sound good / better / best over which chords.

It is about developing the confidence to go from a scale pattern on the fretboard to a musical moment.

Then it is about asking yourself, and trying out answers to, a multitude of what if questions.


What note of the underlying chord is the chord tone at the start / finish? A root? A third? A fifth?
What if I change the start and finish notes to chord tones of the chord, but different chord tones?
Does it still sound good? Better?

What if I play the longer sequence of seventeen notes not in pairs of thirds, but in fourths? So that every other note is further away from the start note.
For example on a descending C Major scale sequence:
Change from
G - E - F - D - E - C - D etc
To
G - D - F - C - E - B - D etc

What if I play the longer sequence of seventeen notes not in pairs of thirds but in pairs of fifths?
Change from
G - E - F - D - E - C - D etc
To
G - C - F - B - E - A - D etc

What if I play more / fewer notes?

What if I play the same note several times consecutively rather than always changing for each next note?
Does that sound good / better / best when the chord is changing or when the chord stays the same for two bars? Does the answer depend on the note played? Does the answer depend on whether the note is a chord tone?

What if I forget all about the theory of it and just play some notes, listen for what sounds good and enjoy the creative process?

What if I just play around and see how many snippets of familiar melodies and tunes I hear?

What if I try to figure out some melodies for simple songs (nursery rhymes, children's songs, pop songs, folk songs, country songs)? You're bound to find some using a Major scale and this simple progression.

What if ... ?

What if ... ?

What if I transcend the what if questions and become a 'musician'?
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on February 21, 2018, 01:57:36 pm
Richard,

Just when I think you are done, you go a step further. I can't go any further.

I'm looking forward to getting home and pulling all this into a single document to serve as a study guide, plus making the backing tracks.

Thank you (seems somehow woefully inadequate,  given what you've put out here)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: Joerfe on February 21, 2018, 02:00:05 pm
Dammit, Richard ;)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on March 08, 2018, 04:37:18 pm
Richard did an amazing job providing a study guide to go along with that video that Batwoman shared in the post that started this thread.  So useful to me that I have taken all the various parts out of posts and consolidated into a single PDF.  If anybody would like a copy please PM me your email and I'll send as an attachment.

Once again, Richard, many thanks.  Your effort shall not be wasted ... I have started practicing C maj scale in open position.  So will be ready to try playing over the backing track.

And many thanks for you too, Batwoman, a wonderful lesson pitched at just the right level for me to take the first steps towards lead/melody playing over rhythm.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on March 09, 2018, 12:40:18 am
Richard did an amazing job providing a study guide to go along with that video that Batwoman shared in the post that started this thread.  So useful to me that I have taken all the various parts out of posts and consolidated into a single PDF.  If anybody would like a copy please PM me your email and I'll send as an attachment.

Once again, Richard, many thanks.  Your effort shall not be wasted ... I have started practicing C maj scale in open position.  So will be ready to try playing over the backing track.

And many thanks for you too, Batwoman, a wonderful lesson pitched at just the right level for me to take the first steps towards lead/melody playing over rhythm.

Big thanks to both Richard and David and of course Chet. Richard the time you have taken to teach us so well is very much appreciated. Love the way you instruct, so clear, lovely humour, creative. You really do have  a talent for breaking down your dazzling knowledge of theory into bite sized and very accessible pieces.

David, thankyou for taking time to put this together for us and thankyou for my copy. You really do contribute to this community in such a generous and consistent way. I appreciate the time you've taken. You've made a mighty fine learning resource.

It's funny I almost didn't post the video, being concerned that it wasn't pc to post another teachers stuff on Justins site. I'm glad I did now.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on March 09, 2018, 09:03:18 am
... I have taken all the various parts out of posts and consolidated into a single PDF.  If anybody would like a copy please PM me your email and I'll send as an attachment...

Thanks David.
And what a great job you've done of compiling it all with graphics to match.

Grab a copy folks.  :)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on March 09, 2018, 10:45:46 am
Batwoman/Richard,

An absolute pleasure and ever so pleased to be able to give a little bit back to the Community that gives me so, so much.
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on October 11, 2018, 05:53:52 pm
just a notification that I am setting this non-sticky … it has been there a while and it is time to let it drop down as it was never meant to be a permanent sticky.

:)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on December 10, 2018, 10:52:37 am
bump …
the some goodness covering :

targeting chord tones ...
starting to play melodic lines with the major scale ...
improvising on a diatonic chord progression in C ...

:)

Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: DavidP on December 10, 2018, 12:57:01 pm
bump …
the some goodness covering :

targeting chord tones ...
starting to play melodic lines with the major scale ...
improvising on a diatonic chord progression in C ...

:)

This was an invaluable thread.  I worked through this and it helped me a lot.  Then came the lessons in A minor pentatonic in BC and G major scale in Music Theory.  All of that gave me enough to jump in and start having some fun playing over backing tracks posted in the Guitar Challenges area.  Though I confess I am not studying and practicing hard on lead play, more just joining in to have fun and using the ears to judge what seems to sound good (or not so good).
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: close2u on August 08, 2019, 10:31:15 pm
I have had cause to remember and re-read this thread.
I had forgotten how much content and how much goodness it contained.
So I'm giving it another bump.

:)
Title: Re: Beginner guitar lesson with Chet Atkins
Post by: batwoman on August 09, 2019, 01:06:52 am
I have had cause to remember and re-read this thread.
I had forgotten how much content and how much goodness it contained.
So I'm giving it another bump.

:)

Thanks for the reminder Richard and thanks for the goodness,  - your lengthy, detailed notes written for us. Thanks too to David for compiling. Good timing for me, more practise with the mighty metronome.