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Competition + Performance Area (Audio / Video of Your Playing) => Collaborations / Songwriting / Projects => Topic started by: diademgrove on June 24, 2013, 08:52:27 am

Title: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on June 24, 2013, 08:52:27 am
Yesterday in a mad rush I wrote some lyrics. I haven't time to think about working out a melody/chord structure and thought it would be great if somebody took them away and finished the job. There are no rules. Just take the words away, change them if you like, add new ones and put them to music. Please let me know if you start work on them and make sure you post the results.

The lyrics have no title. I did think about "Lyrics with no words", but it doesn't seem appropriate.

Anyway, enough rambling, here are the words:

I hear the red sky in the rain
I feel the rainbow in the wind
I see the thunder in the trees
My true love rides the breeze

I hear the paint on the wall
I feel the air of centuries past
I see the east wind on my face
My true love sleeps in grace

The man in the suit
Says he's tough
Little John in reverse
Slips money from her purse
Yes, that's right
Oh, so tough

I hear the moan in the breeze
I feel the heat in the rain
I see his head in her hand
Yes, she's my one true love..............
my one true love

I know, they're pretty weird. They mean something to me, but please don't ask what, I'd rather see what you make of them.

Good luck,

diadem

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 03, 2013, 05:20:47 am
Hi Diadem,
You seem like someone willing to put up with me being weird so.... i think i'll fake an acoustic and do something pretty  ???
but I think i may have something for you. It may need to be lengthened, and i could really go for an alternate pattern on the second part... sort of a rough draft... but it's an idea. 
81 bpm,
the chord progression is dm A# A,
repeat 4 times, gm,
dm....
gm,F,gm,Bb,A
dm,Eb,F,dm,
dm,Eb,F,gm.

sorry everybody for the static and stuff, i just got reaper and don't know how to use it
(new stuff!yeah! ;D)
https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/cynestasia

anybody got vocals on this?
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 03, 2013, 05:57:14 pm
Hi Frances,

I'm really pleased you've taken the time to add something to my lyrics. I like the feel of the music as well. You may be amazed but after finishing Samba I started messing about with some chords for the first line and a sort of melody line. I ended up with one bar each of Dm E Gm7 and Am, not a million miles away from your progression. The words over the Dm, E and Am sort of fit but I can't get the jump from "the" to "red sky" to sound ok. "The" comes at the end of E and "red sky" during Gm.

Unfortunately I like the way the chords sound. I haven't really thought about the second line or the refrain, my true love etc. It may be easier using A# and A.

I'll put a short version up on Saturday and see what you think. If I'm brave I'll add my vocal. I'll also put up a version with your chord structure to see what you think.

It would be great if we our ideas to work together. 

As to the bridge about the man in the suit and the last verse I was thinking of a change to a major scale. In between a mass of noise, think A Day in the Life by the Beatles, or bits of Revolution No 9.

Yes, you're right, I'm weird, how do you fancy trying to pull off a joint song?

Thanks again, it's appreciated,

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 03, 2013, 09:29:15 pm
Cool,  I'll talk to you then. :D
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 03, 2013, 10:54:47 pm
Cool,  I'll talk to you then. :D

I'll post something this weekend. I had a short run through and feel a bar of 2/4 at the end of the line works slightly better. I'd end up with a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 2/4 on the Am. Let me know if this causes a problem.

Fingers crossed it'll work.

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 04, 2013, 02:03:30 am



I'll post something this weekend. I had a short run through and feel a bar of 2/4 at the end of the line works slightly better. I'd end up with a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 2/4 on the Am. Let me know if this causes a problem.

Fingers crossed it'll work.




I'm not really sure what you mean. I think I'll just have to hear it. 
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 04, 2013, 07:30:06 am



I'll post something this weekend. I had a short run through and feel a bar of 2/4 at the end of the line works slightly better. I'd end up with a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 2/4 on the Am. Let me know if this causes a problem.

Fingers crossed it'll work.




I'm not really sure what you mean. I think I'll just have to hear it.

Don't worry, I sometimes have trouble explaining myself. The count of the beats are in the brackets. It should be clearer when you hear the demo.

Dm (1234) E (1234) Gm (1234) Am (1234)(12) back to Dm etc.

I had a mess with a melody on Cubase as well. I may put that up as well.

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 04, 2013, 07:56:41 pm
Frances,

I forgot to add, we now have a title, I like Cynestastia.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 04, 2013, 09:52:55 pm
Well Frances, the weather was nice and I managed to find time to put my ideas onto tape, well, into the computer.

The chords are Dm A# A Gm (1 bar 4/4, I bar 2/4, basically 6 beats) Dm E Gm7 Am (1 bar 4/4, I bar 2/4) x 2 At the end of the verse I've put C Am C Am (1 bar each) and repeated the first verse.

I've added your guitar for an introduction and over the first line of the song to see how it sounds, I like it. I've panned my guitar and your guitar so its easier to hear. I see the electric guitar over all the chords with maybe something different over the C Am interlude.

At the end of the last Am I envisage chaos ending on a C7 chord and into the bridge in F and the last verse in D major. Of course, this is open for discussion.

Hope you think we have something, if you do I'll record a better version of the acoustic guitar and make it available for download. I don't hear any drums or bass in the first two verses, do you?

diadem

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-demo-1/s-gRXlN
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 06, 2013, 03:34:01 pm
Hi Frances,

I have recorded a draft structure for the full song. I have put everything in the comments as to chords, timing etc. The weird break could be long or shorter.

If you don't think the last sections work we can alter them. I see them being mostly electric guitar with bass and drums.

diadem

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-demo-2/s-YmxU5

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 06, 2013, 05:34:03 pm
yay, thanks.

you were thinking the arpeggiated part over the chords, yes? I've got a little lick that can go on the Bb. a similar sound to the intro may take a few days to train in.  i am so busting out the electric violin today(justfor fun, don't go expecting stuff,i play like twice a year,) will have to see how the lyrics go with the music...and yeah i think if there were drums in the first half they'd have to be quite restrained. this is a lot of stuff to think about.... start with fitting the lyrics to the music. ok, given one verse per repetition of the chord progression with the c and am part not having the lryics on it... i think we should change it up for the story part, then bridge, then last verse. or maybe a rhythm variation could do it, i'm a bit wary of depending on a lot of decoration to keep things interesting. 


Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: PattheBunny on July 06, 2013, 06:18:16 pm
Okay guys I don't know alot but if I were to approach this the first thing I'd like to know is what key it's in.   Because I can't hear a tonal center.   

Pat
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 06, 2013, 06:25:52 pm
Okay guys I don't know alot but if I were to approach this the first thing I'd like to know is what key it's in.   Because I can't hear a tonal center.   

Pat

Hi Pat,

I would say the key is Dm for the acoustic first part, D major for the bridge and finally F for the last verse, with a few passing chords for good measure. The shift from D to F sounds like a step and half move up, rather than a shift down. Unfortunately I can't play barre chords that high up the neck on my acoustic.

Hope this helps.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 06, 2013, 06:52:40 pm
yay, thanks.

you were thinking the arpeggiated part over the chords, yes? I've got a little lick that can go on the Bb. a similar sound to the intro may take a few days to train in.  i am so busting out the electric violin today(justfor fun, don't go expecting stuff,i play like twice a year,) will have to see how the lyrics go with the music...and yeah i think if there were drums in the first half they'd have to be quite restrained. this is a lot of stuff to think about.... start with fitting the lyrics to the music. ok, given one verse per repetition of the chord progression with the c and am part not having the lryics on it... i think we should change it up for the story part, then bridge, then last verse. or maybe a rhythm variation could do it, i'm a bit wary of depending on a lot of decoration to keep things interesting.

Hi Frances,

I was thinking of the arpeggio part lasting until the wild noisy break, with my guitar acting as support. If you're not sure about the C Am progression we can take it out. Apart from making it easier for me to play I'm not sure what it adds, if anything. The two beat bar could act as the turnaround as in the verse.

As I explained to Pat I want to see the F played as an A barre chord shape on electric rather than an F shape as my acoustic version. This way the music fits in with the way the lyrics go in my head. The reason I don't want to explain what the lyrics mean is simple. The more the song reflects my vision the less of a collaboration it feels to me. Your chord progression is great and if you have other ideas please keep putting them forward.

I don't hear very much decoration at all, unless you mean the key modulation.

I hope the electric violin can go in the wild instrumental part as well, even if it doesn't come out very often.

The problem for me is my singing. Whilst I'm getting better and it'll sound reasonable over the chords it'll rely on good luck. There will be no worked out idea of what the notes are, or what alternatives are available. Just getting them to sound ok against the chord is a major achievement.

I agree no drums. I do hear martial drums for the bridge and last verse to reflect the change in tempo.

I hope I'm not putting you off. I'm getting quite excited about where the song could end up.

diadem

 
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 06, 2013, 08:27:43 pm
I have thought about the progression a bit more. I may be over elaborating and making the song more complicated than it need be. Tomorrow I will put three more demo versions up.

One will be in Dm throughout. the other will modulate into D for the last verse. One of the D versions will include Bb, I hate hard work go to waste. But the chord change from D to Bb sounds really familiar, which may be a problem. I don't really want to steal somebody else's work.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 06, 2013, 09:19:13 pm
oh, by bridge i meant the wild noisy part, i'm fine with the c ,am part. just saying the first prog. could start to drag around the third verse. we'll have to see if it does before trying fix it.... oh you were posting when i was posting....ehh..well when in doubt there's always 1-4-5 :).... in other words, thinking like that can be a real minefield  ;D
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 06, 2013, 10:43:20 pm
oh, by bridge i meant the wild noisy part, i'm fine with the c ,am part. just saying the first prog. could start to drag around the third verse. we'll have to see if it does before trying fix it.... oh you were posting when i was posting....ehh..well when in doubt there's always 1-4-5 :).... in other words, thinking like that can be a real minefield  ;D

Hi Frances,

I see this thread as our rehearsal room. It may be virtual but who cares if it works. If we were in the same room we'd try different arrangements. All I'll be doing tomorrow is trying different endings. 10 minutes work in a real band room, a bit longer in the virtual world.

It may help if I set out where I think the lyrics go.

Verses 1 and 2 go over the acoustic guitar and your arpeggio. The wild bit is the instrumental break or solo, the bridge (Man in the Suit) comes after the solo and the third verse ends it.

The first two verses may be slower than you thought, which is why I increased the tempo to 109 for the bridge and final verse. I see the wild interlude as free time. By the time we get to the third verse the listener would have been turned upside down by the interlude and the increased pace. They will be so impressed the last thing on their mind will be the slow tempo of the first two verses.

I should be recording at about 12:00 noon UK time and have the demos up late afternoon. If you've worked out some musical ideas for the C Am bit let me know before I start and I'll leave them in. If not I'll take them out and we can put them back in later if we think its a mistake.

I see our rehearsal room as a very democratic place all ideas are valid, even 1-4-5. Although its going to be hard if we have to consider it, after your arpeggio and chord sequence.

I think if we hear 4 or 5 different structures the right one is going to stand out. It may even be the one already up.

We'll see what tomorrow brings. I've a feeling our song will turn out more than ok.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 07, 2013, 05:18:58 am
I see our rehearsal room as a very democratic place all ideas are valid


Well, ok. 

i couldn't get the arpeggios to work today. here's noise.  ;)

(is a bwaahaha apropriate here?)
https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/cynestasia-w-violin-noise
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 07, 2013, 08:26:39 am
I see our rehearsal room as a very democratic place all ideas are valid


Well, ok. 

i couldn't get the arpeggios to work today. here's noise.  ;)

(is a bwaahaha apropriate here?)
https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/cynestasia-w-violin-noise

Forgive me, but what does bwaahaha mean? I haven't come across the term before, maybe a sign of my age.

I love the noise. Not sure it should go over the whole track though. (Slight digression, I hear another collaboration in my head based on your violin playing which could go over the whole track. Have a listen   http://youtu.be/YkNZCA5HzTQ a classic someone introduced me to recently. 13 minutes of aural bliss. Of course that's only if you want to do another after this.)

The arpeggio and acoustic guitar seem to blend well together and suit the song. I like it and would like to see if we can complete it. I presume the problem is my additional chords.

Could you put just the electric violin wav track up on soundcloud so I can download it and have a play with it in Cubase. I think we have the made the first step to completing the solo. I must admit I was a bit worried your idea of noise wouldn't fit with mine.

I'll record and put up the different endings after 12 noon.

I did mean it when I said all ideas are valid. As Justin says if it sounds good, it is good. Of course what sounds good is all down to personal taste. If our tastes coincide what we produce will be good. We may not get many Eagles fans liking it, but, what the hell, life is full of small disappointments.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 07, 2013, 03:04:55 pm
I've removed the C to Am interlude in the first two verses. I didn't really miss them.

The first new demo remains in Dm ( chords are Dm A# A Gm (x2) repeated once for the bridge and Dm E Gm7 Am repeated a number of times for the last verse. Not really all that keen personally.

The second demo moves from Dm to D. The bridge is the same chord sequence as the Dm demo followed by a repeating pattern of D Bb G Asus2. I like this a lot better. I would say its between this one and the more complicated first demo.

Please ignore the gap for the instrumental break, we can make it as long or short as we want.

Time to make our minds up I think. If we pick which of the demos works best I'll sart getting the acoustic guitar part recorded properly.

I think we now have the first two verses sorted. We just need to decide on C to Am and try and put the arpeggio parts together.

We have started the instrumental breakdown. The violin to me is the lead instrument. I'm sure I can do some weird things with it once I get the raw track into Cubase. Not sure we need anything else unless somebody wants to add anything. I'll post the progress up as and when.

The bridge and final verse needs bass, drums and electric guitar.

Finally we need a melody and singer. If it would help someone (Pat?) I'll provide a spoken work version of where I think the lyrics fit in relation to the beats later this week. Unfortunately hot weather and me don't mix.

diadem

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-dm-demo/s-4kygJ

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-dm-to-d-demo/s-NTP6X

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 07, 2013, 04:15:31 pm
  Hey, i've uploaded the two stems of the violin part, i can upload them sans effects if you want (cringes at people actually hearing what i'm playing)
 
 you"re right about c am thing, it's better without it. i like the second one best. the demo from yesterday was good but this one keeps things moving better and is easier to understand.  so i guess let's  do that?
 
...oh, good morning mr. vega..

  i'l give the arpeggios another whirl today, maybe i will go looking for some picking patterns to steal or something.






Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 07, 2013, 04:43:17 pm
Hi Frances,

I liked the original pattern if that's possible. The violin parts will be fine with the effects. I'm just going to mess them up anyway. I hope you don't mind.

Its time for my tea (evening meal). I'll post my first draft of the instrumental later tonight to see if you like it. Dm to D it is. I worked out what D to Bb sounds like. I'll not post it until we've finished it may affect how the melody goes.

Good luck with the arpeggios.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 07, 2013, 06:51:09 pm
Hi Frances,

first rough draft of the wild instrumental piece. I add some weird D notes from Cubase. What do you think?

diadem

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-guide-mix-1/s-xLLxA
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 08, 2013, 05:21:30 am
wicked awesome, how'd you do that? we need to get an electric guitar on there to smooth things over, as it is it sounds kind of like a comedic low fantasy where a person from the regular universe gets in a different dimension and something really messed up happens and the person native to the other dimension is all like, "oh, don't worry about it,that happens all the time."


  I don't think the arpeggios are going to work out. it sounds good with the chords not being in key but with the notes picked singly it's awkward to get from one chord to the other. i'm sure there are plenty of tricks to get around this but i don't know them. if the A were an am, E a em7b5, and the am an A, things would be easier...maybe.
  i have to clear my head and look at other options....don't they teach good judgement on the internet somewheres? 
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 08, 2013, 07:52:52 am
Hi Frances,

I'm glad you like it. I'll let you know how I did it next weekend. It was a lot easier to do than explain. I'm a mad cook. I just keeping put spices into the pot until I like the taste, followed by, another spice won't do no harm. Cubase is good as it allows you to withdraw the spice if it spoils the soup.

I agree about adding the electric guitar. Do you fancy a go?

I think what your saying is that the transition to the violin part is too abrupt. Which is what I thought last night. It needs something to connect this dimension to the next and keep us on the ground. A drum pattern from the last two bars of the verse may work. I'll have a play and see what it sounds like.

Shame about the arpeggio. I don't suppose you have a piano or keyboard? Failing that we may be able to devise some wonderful alternative tuning for the guitar. In the meantime I'll see what an em7b5 sounds like (if I can play it).

Good musical judgement is in your ears. You don't need the internet, just the confidence to let your ears say this isn't working, what can we do to make it work? In my case that is limited by my playing ability, but that is getting better, but there are many roads to Rome. I usually sit down and do something else, like last night when I found out that the move to the electric violin part didn't work. Then the idea of the drums came to me.

I think the transition from the violin to the bridge works.

Time for breakfast.

We are getting closer to the final major decisions, the electric rhythm guitar, bass, drums and last but not least the vocal.
 

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 08, 2013, 10:06:59 am
Hi Francis,

em7b5 is a bit of a stretch in first position. I'll think about it and have a practice.

This altered tuning would put all the notes as open strings or within reach of four fingers. Starting on the thickest E string, E A D A C# F. If you wanted to put D as the lowest root note, you could either change the thick E to D or put a capo on the 5th fret and use the 5th and 4th strings to play the roots.

Not sure what it would sound like over the whole progression as the 3rds, 5ths, etc will be in a different order for each chord. You could put them in the same order, but that would involve a lot of string skipping and some notes would go up and others go down. Either way, it may sound horrid or it may sound funky.

If we sort out the E major chord, is the A/Am that much of a problem? The arpeggio you put up first sounded good against the acoustic rhythm, including the A major chord.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 08, 2013, 11:14:11 am
Hi Frances,

shall we start a thread with the heading Cynestasia as the track starts to come together. That way people can follow, if they want, how we get to the final track. It may be helpful for people considering doing the same thing.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 08, 2013, 08:43:21 pm
I've added a bass (kick) drum to the song to link the first two verses to the instrumental. I've also put the drum on the bridge and the outro. The hot weather was getting to me and I wilted, so they may not be on the beat, but as a guide they are fine.

I tried to put a drum beat all though the instrumental but the increase in speed made it difficult and I gave up. The drum at 80bpm could go on a little longer, seemed a bit abrupt for me listening back.

Alternatively we could forget about the drums in the first part and use the guitar as a link to the wild violin. Have a listen and let me know what you think.

I'm back at work tomorrow (booooo), so my time will be limited until Saturday.

diadem

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-rough-drum-mix/s-Wx1Tk
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 09, 2013, 06:34:42 am
i definitely don't want to keep the clapping part in the beginning, i thought they were there as a rhythm guide.

 i wandered off in a direction today because i wanted to see if that em7b5 would work in any way, tired of playing it so played faster and ended up with this:
 https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/faster-with-electric

  so thats a possible thing to do, but now i've heard the chord i was trying out too many times and can't tell if it sounds weird. the electric is more an example of a sound to have than what notes to have. i was unaware of how different it got until i listened to the original.

.....Hey! drums aren't confined to what's physically possible, cut and paste, man! cut and paste!

 if we somehow got the end of the guitar part like the last note and kind of warped somehow to pull it into the instrumental that would be cool.



 













 
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 09, 2013, 07:26:31 am
off to work, I'll have a re-listen when I get home.

The clapping is a guide, its awful and won't be staying.

When I played em7b5 it sounded too close to Gm7 for me.

I never cut and paste or use quantise, I prefer human error. Although I do admit to slightly moving some drum beats.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 09, 2013, 05:15:04 pm
  yup, that e does sound weird, sry about that.

 yes, i do have a keyboard, two in fact,what do you want with it?

I was totally having a rave party with the looper the other day, it was fun. i figure that i set out to learn guitar, not how to tap out a drum beat on a keyboard, i don't like premade loops though.

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 09, 2013, 05:42:07 pm
Hi Frances,

time to take stock I think (reply to your last post is at the bottom).

Your arpeggio made me want to do the song, I'd like to keep it. We have a problem with my chord progression. We can dump it or think of something different to do over it. This isn't as stupid as it sounds as the refrain will be sang over it.

I like the idea of the song have two tempos, but could be persuaded to increase the speed. It may make singing over it easier.

I don't like the drums going into the instrumental. They will be coming out. A continuation of the arpeggio for a bar would be interesting, especially if we do something weird with the last note as you suggested.

Liked the electric rhythm guitar. Do you fancy doing 4 recordings of the rhythm for the bridge and the last verse, the chords are on one of the demos I posted. If you can't find them I'll repost them. No lead work just yet. If you do, try different pickup selections and if you have access to amp modelling, use different amp models. You could them all on one downloadable track and I'll cut and paste, just leave enough silence between each take. The tempo is 109bpm, I don't think we need to play over the rough demos.

As I said we have a democratic band room, if you disagree just say so.

The weather's taking most of my energy, so its time for a cup of tea, methinks.

Its coming together nicely I think.

diadem

ps  just seen your last post. It may be easier to play the arpeggio on keyboard, not so many weird hand shapes. The only problem would be the sustain on the last note of the introduction, but a nice grand piano would sound good.

I don't know how to do loops, so its just tapping on the keyboard for me.

No need to apologise, weird can be fun.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 10, 2013, 06:35:38 am
 weird isn't good in this instance. i like the way the electric sounds underneath the acoustic. 
...yeah that's part of the problem with the arpeggio, trying to keep it sounding ok without it being fidgety with the vocals.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 10, 2013, 07:22:28 am
Hi Frances,

I'm going to Leeds today for work, not fun, but better than going to London. I'll sort out the acoustic guitar for the first two verses and hopefully by the weekend I'll be ready to do a guide vocal. We should have enough then to see whether the arpeggio works or not. When I put up the demo of the vocal I may cut and paste your original arpeggio to see how it fits.

If you can record the electric rhythm guitars we will be on the way to completing the basic rhythm track.

I agree I'd prefer the electric guitar over the acoustic.

Well off to work.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 11, 2013, 05:11:51 pm
Thanks Frances, sounds good. I'll download them  later and start work on them tomorrow and Saturday.

I'll have to get my bits done soon,

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 11, 2013, 06:45:41 pm
Arg! crud! i'm not very happy with them, trying get better takes.........didn't want to be doing "just one more" for the next three weeks.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 11, 2013, 07:18:15 pm
If you keep posting them I'll keep downloading them. The more the merrier. I intend to have completed the first two verses with guide vocal together with the bridge and final verse by the end of the weekend. If you're still not happy we'll re-do the last bit. We should have a clearer idea of where we are going. I think we'll be ok.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 11, 2013, 09:03:39 pm
Dear all,

On Saturday, 12 noon UK time I will delete a number of the rough drafts of Cynestasia. I will keep up the Dm to D demo and the one with the drums on. All the others will go. If you want to download them (I can't understand why) you have a couple of days to do so.

Over the weekend I will post some more demos which may be quite close to the finished track and I don't want to clutter up more soundcard account with lots of rough sketches.

Frances I've downloaded everything I need up to Guitar 4 if you want to do something similar.

Thanks,

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 11, 2013, 10:22:24 pm
Hi Frances,

this is what I would like your electric rhythm guitar playing to rest on. If you could pick (or record) a nice clean track to go on top. I've recorded the acoustic guitars but need to get a good mix first. I may add the acoustic to the bridge and final verse, depends if it works.

I like the sound of the processed electric guitars but they need a clean dry sound on the top. Hope you like them too.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-rough-electric/s-srbgS

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 12, 2013, 06:54:26 am
 :D That's a cool trick, i'll remember that one. i think i've almost got this noise thing under control. i don't like the digital noise that noise removal leaves behind but at least it's not that godawful hiss.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/dry-rhythm

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/electric-rythym-mix
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 12, 2013, 07:23:35 am
:D That's a cool trick, i'll remember that one. i think i've almost got this noise thing under control. i don't like the digital noise but at least its not that godawful hiss.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/dry-rhythm

Downloaded. Shame about the hiss I liked it. I was going to leave it in at the end of the electric violin part to see if it sounded ok. Tonight I'll work on the acoustic guitar parts I recorded. It'll take some time because I recorded in stereo with two mics so I could split the results later. In an ideal world I'd have the facility to multi-track without all this messing about, but at least I'll have two slightly different sounds from the two mics.

I like the dry rhythm guitar.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 12, 2013, 10:44:20 pm
Hi Frances,

I'm definitely wilting in this heat. But I have a few days off work. I've started the drums for the bridge and last verse. I'm all set for a go at the vocals tomorrow. I think its coming along nicely. Watch me spoil it with my singing.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 13, 2013, 05:16:58 pm
Don't do the drums over the electric track, it's way off and needs to be redone. recording over it will make the drums off too.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 13, 2013, 05:25:36 pm
Don't do the drums over the electric track, it's way off and needs to be redone. recording over it will make the drums off too.

Its already done, together with the vocals. I'll be having my tea (evening meal) shortly in case its not up. If you just wait a while you can hear the results. I don't think you were that far off.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 13, 2013, 05:55:23 pm
Here it is, I quite like it.

Your electric part missed the first beat of the bar. Once I found that out your timing wasn't very far off my acoustic version. If you want to redo the parts we can start the last bit again.

Hope my singing doesn't put you off.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-very-rough-mix-1/s-oyqIn
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 13, 2013, 10:22:05 pm
Hi Frances,

I've had another listen, or two. I may change some of the words, so that we have an aabb rhyme. I think the bridge could do with a few more words as well.

It would also help if I could sing properly, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Other than that I think it still hangs together nicely.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 14, 2013, 04:33:28 pm
Hi Francis,

I like the arpeggio. Can please you put it up on its own so that I can mess about with the balance.

Have you redone the electric rhythm guitar? I see you put two track up yesterday but they sound the same as the old ones to me. My judgement has gone a bit funny after listening to my vocal. But your arpeggio playing has restored my spirits.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 14, 2013, 04:44:17 pm
hi,

 i find the 4 on the floor rhythm a bit martial, is there any way you could start on beat 2 and play with the beats a little?
here is what i've got for the first part. i think it may indeed be fidgety, but if we add one more layer of guitar it could work. could you add some some arpeggiated chords? i feel as though the acoustic needs to be settled within a space in some way  either with a keyboard or guitar surrounding.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/part-1-w-arpeggio

........sure, it's got mistakes and stuff, .............i didn't upload anything yesterday, it must be some sort of problem with the site. i will, i will, i will complete the electric track today, for real this time, really. i just needed to win at my little game of tetris i had going on.

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 14, 2013, 05:30:27 pm
Hi Frances,

no need to hurry. I thought you'd heard my vocal and ran away.

I'll think about the drums. The problem is my limited ability. Once you have the electric rhythm done to your satisfaction I'll have a mess about with the drums. I quite like the 4 to the floor beat, but not enough to insist on it.

I'll put some guitar over verse 1 and 2 once I hear your stem with my vocal to see where everything sits.

I had to ask what tetris is and I'm still not sure.

diadem

ps I thought I'd heard the stem but it was the demo, I have now and changed this reply.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 14, 2013, 06:20:54 pm
yeah, this time i uploaded the wrong file and had to change it. i meant with the vocal- i HEAR instead of EYYE HEAR.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 14, 2013, 06:24:16 pm
I've had a quick listen, sounds really good. I'll try and play something with it, but if I get the balances right and the singing in tune we may not need anything else.

I see what you mean about the mistakes. Are you planning on re-recording it or can I just plough ahead with what I've got?

Regarding the vocal, by then I was getting frustrated and thought sod it, this is the last one, of course I started a bit too early.......
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 14, 2013, 06:44:46 pm
it's going to take couple days at least to get the arpeggio in decent shape, i'd rather you didn't use the take i have up in the final product, or in other words, these many mistakes can pile up pretty quickly once they are all put together in one place. if you're just experimenting on it, well thats what its for..... yah, i know what that's like.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 14, 2013, 06:52:35 pm
Ok, no problem. I'll see what I can do with a second guitar arpeggio part and a lot of singing practice.

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 15, 2013, 10:43:02 pm
ok, i think this will avoid major trainwrecks. i think these are the same settings i used before. i have to have the mix before putting on the top track, or you could tell me how to do it myself.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/electric-one

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/electric-two
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 16, 2013, 08:03:14 am
Hi Frances,

you may have seen some old films of witches stood around the cauldron chucking things in, that's how I got the original mix. I know I should write things down but I just listen and if it sounds awful it gets removed, if it sounds interesting it stays. Eventually I have a soup I like the taste of.

All you need to do is open up your DAW's box of tools, reverb, flanger, chorus, etc and have a play. I build up 5 or 6 tracks with one or two effects on each. With your two tracks I'll have, maybe, 6 tracks (3 of each) and get to work.

If it all sounds ok I'll put it up tonight. Once you get the top track done I'll start thinking about the drums. If you can think of a song with a drum pattern you think would suit it let me know. If we are going to start on beat 2 I think the toms will have to go. It would work with the emphasis coming on the word "The". Not sure if I've got the technique to pull that off. We will see.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 16, 2013, 04:47:45 pm
Hi Frances,

here is the mix for the electric rhythm guitar. If you can record a version to go on top that would be good.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-rough-electric-1/s-11o4A

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: digger72 on July 16, 2013, 08:54:08 pm
Hi Diadem/Frances,

I know I'm late to the party, but if you fancy some Derbyshire twang on vocals (not that they're that good) - give me a shout.

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 16, 2013, 09:34:54 pm
Hi Digger,

if Frances has no objection it would be a relief. My singing is a moving feast, its getting closer to being in key most of the time, which is an improvement. Unfortunately I cannot it to sing the notes I want.

I'm really pleased with how the song's developing and it deserves a good vocal.

So that's a thumbs up from one of us.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 17, 2013, 06:08:00 am
Sure digger, glad to have you.

for drums? maybe something like this?
https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/drum-snip




when i was recording the rhythm track my earbud fell out and bounced on the strings so i've uploaded that one because it makes me happy when that sort of thing happens. if it annoys just say so and i'll redo it.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/electric-earbud-incident


Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 17, 2013, 07:54:34 am
Hi Frances,

I'll like to use the electric earbud track, but as a spice rather than the main course. Could you please re-do it.

I like the drums. It'll take me a while to sort out. It sounds complicated. I've only just got used to putting in 8th notes. If you could write out the count that would be really helpful.

Welcome aboard Digger. I decided the problem with the lyrics was my singing rather than getting them to rhyme. I do think we need an additional The Man in the suit, either after Yes that's right or if it doesn't scan properly before. The second My true love sleeps in grace is the intro to the electric violin. I also added My true love understands at the end of the last verse. I thought it sounded better when I sang it. Although if the words don't work when you trying singing them feel free to let us know.

I'll try and have another basic track up at the weekend to check our progress and for Digger to start playing around with the melody.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 17, 2013, 05:28:08 pm
here is the rhythm. https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/rhythm


the drum goes - 8, 16,16,8, 16, 16,8,16,16,16,16,16,16.

or 1-, and a 2-, and a 3-,and a four e and a.

its easier to hit the key quickly if you stick out your elbows like you have bad table manners. i use my right hand keeping a steady eighth note beat and my left for those that fall between.
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 17, 2013, 07:38:53 pm
Thanks Frances,

I'll have a go at putting everything together over the next few days.

My health has taken a slight turn for the worse, something to do with the heat. I feel a bit better today but if I slow down a bit you'll know why.

I'll try getting the drums right. If all else fails I could just cheat and draw all the beats in. You still want me to start on beat 2?

Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: frances on July 17, 2013, 08:26:25 pm
What? start the drums on beat 2? (goes in reaper and moves drums) well, it sounds sort of cool but i like better the other way.......good, then maybe i'll be able to keep up with you. take care,
Title: Re: Help required.....
Post by: diademgrove on July 17, 2013, 09:53:01 pm
What? start the drums on beat 2? (goes in reaper and moves drums) well, it sounds sort of cool but i like better the other way.......good, then maybe i'll be able to keep up with you. take care,

You suggested starting on beat 2 in an earlier post.

Thanks for the concern. I've lived with it for 5 years, its not going away and I've learned to do what it says, usually. So a bit of rest whilst waiting for the weather to break is in order.

Sometimes I pull its tail so I can pretend its not in charge. But not this week.
 
 ;)

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 18, 2013, 07:35:48 pm
I've had a lazy day and I'm fine. Its very hot though.

I'm off back to work tomorrow but should have something up over the weekend.
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 19, 2013, 12:24:05 am
cool, i played with an idea for the switchover to the noisy part but now realize that i was using guide mix two so we'll have to see if it works because i sort of like that little silence in the one with the vocals. do you sort of see what i'm trying to do? with taking the last chord and making it louder and more distorted.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/segue

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 19, 2013, 07:24:00 am
cool, i played with an idea for the switchover to the noisy part but now realize that i was using guide mix two so we'll have to see if it works because i sort of like that little silence in the one with the vocals. do you sort of see what i'm trying to do? with taking the last chord and making it louder and more distorted.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/segue

Hi Frances,

I think it works, but like you, also like the way the song stops with the repeat of the vocal over silence with the instrumental interlude emerging from the depths. In cinematic terms it would be the point were the shadow appears and the audience starts to get a little jittery.

Over the weekend I'll put together another rough mix, one with the silence and one without. Digger can then test his vocal against both and see which one he prefers singing over. Of course we could not repeat the refrain.

One of those circumstances where we'll know it when we hear it I suspect.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 20, 2013, 04:41:58 pm
Its ok, I've slowed down and despite a break in the weather feel drained.

I have mixed my acoustic guitar and Frances' electric. I've included the electric violin break so we can see where everything fits. I'm happy with the mix, so please speak up if you don't agree. I intend to use this as the foundation on which to build up the final track.

This version is the one with the silence before the violin starts for Digger to repeat the last line of the refrain. I'll try and do the segue version either today or tomorrow.

I have added a drum count in for Digger so he knows when the verse and bridge start. This will be coming out together other bits of noise once we have the vocal.

The drums have caused me a problem they sound too busy. I did think about using the rhythm on the hi hats but I'm not a great fan of hats. I prefer crashes. Once we have agreement on the basic rhythm track I'll play around with the drums and put them up.

The bits we still need are;

vocal
Frances's guitar introduction
My arpeggio
Guitar over the violin
drums
bass for the bridge and last verse, and
guitar lines for the bridge and last verse.

I don't think we are that far away. What we have sounds sweet to me. Once we sort the drums the bass will follow. We have a rough version of Frances' guitar introduction and first two verses and I'll start practising the arpeggio later today.

Here's the link

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-towards-a-final-mix/s-C058G
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 21, 2013, 08:25:04 am
Hi Frances,

do you think you could use the most recent version of the rhythm demo to recreate what you did with the segue? Its seems a better solution than me trying to cut and past your segue with what I produced.

Thanks,

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 21, 2013, 03:29:57 pm
oh ,yeah.    is there going to be acoustic in the second part? with the electric so far to the front the percussive strikes are sort of distracting and unpleasant.   
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 21, 2013, 03:53:00 pm
Hi Frances,

I wasn't going to put any acoustic guitar on the bridge and last verse. I'll have a play and see what happens to the electric. I liked the percussive hits, but if you think there unpleasant I'll mask them with something else.

I've deleted towards a rough mix 1, it didn't have the drum count ins I mentioned, weird how that happened.


https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-towards-a-final-mix/s-qLLsI

Let me know if there's any problem recreating the segue and I'll try and put it on here.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 21, 2013, 04:27:33 pm
theres no problem recreating it, it's very straight forward. i'm just learning to use the envelope as i go, otherwise this would be done in like two seconds. (now why's it not working? oh yeah, the same reason it wasn't working last time. i'm a rote learner, can you tell? ::)
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 21, 2013, 06:02:25 pm
Hi Frances,

no I can't tell. I have a similar problem with this amber button. If its on the track doesn't mixdown. Stuff I think is there just isn't. It pops up know and again as if by magic. One day I'll try and learn what I'm doing.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 21, 2013, 07:24:38 pm
so, heres what i've got.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/segue3
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 21, 2013, 10:19:25 pm
so, heres what i've got.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/segue3

downloaded and I'll have a play tomorrow.
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 22, 2013, 03:46:20 am
hi,

here is the intro

 https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/intro

and verse 1 & 2

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/verse-1-2

 
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 22, 2013, 09:40:42 am
Thanks Frances,

very nice, I'll record the acoustic guitar later today and post the results.

I've some ideas for your new guitar parts I hope they work and you like them.

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 22, 2013, 07:28:34 pm
I've had a productive day. Unfortunately I haven't got around to mixing the tracks yet. I've recorded the acoustic guitar and some stuff to go over the instrumental interlude, mostly weird noisy stuff.

I'm back at work tomorrow so I'll not have much time. I hope to get the basic rhythm track with Frances' new guitar pieces up on Wednesday evening.

Frances we have time for you to double check the intro and verses 1 and 2 to see if you are happy with them.

The drums will have to wait until the weekend.

The weather's a bit cooler today, no wonder I got so much done.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 23, 2013, 04:56:48 pm
Hi Frances and Digger,

Here is the rough mix with Frances' introduction and segue. I could only hide the electric rhythm guitar thuds with a snare drum. The acoustic guitar would have to be the lead instrument otherwise. Don't worry the drums aren't finished. I included the snare so you could hear the rhythm guitar mix without concentrating on the thuds. I like it.

I've added a little more noise to the musical interlude. I intend to build a few more layers to sit underneath the violin. I hear a nice clean guitar line on top. Frances are you still up for it.

I've included two drum count ins for the beginning of the singing as cues. They will come out once we get the vocal.

All in all I like it. I'm very taken with the Spanish feel to the introduction and first verses. Thoughts and comments please.

Here's the link

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-towards-final-rough/s-xa22N


diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 23, 2013, 06:17:45 pm
Hi,

Sounds great. Some lovely playing in there. Do you have any idea for the vocal melody or can i just try and come up with something? Any particular style to the vocal?
It's 2 verse before the interlude and the other bits afterwards?
After the interlude the rhythm has slight pauses in it is that how it will be?

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 23, 2013, 07:20:32 pm
Hi,

Sounds great. Some lovely playing in there. Do you have any idea for the vocal melody or can i just try and come up with something? Any particular style to the vocal?
It's 2 verse before the interlude and the other bits afterwards?
After the interlude the rhythm has slight pauses in it is that how it will be?

Cheers,

Digger

Hi Digger,

I can barely sing in tune so it would have been a waste writing out a melody. I think my vocal works within limits. I'd like it to be a bit more melodic if possible. But if you find something that works better please go with it.

I like the way the rhythm goes after the interlude and I hope Frances is happy with it. I like the way you get bits shimmering off the chords. The drums may alter the way the rhythm sounds but I'll not have time to think about the drums until the weekend.

If the vocal's ready by then I can do a John Densmore (I wish) and use the drums to accent the vocal. (Notice the excuse to try and put off doing that bit)

Verse 2 comes before the interlude. "The man in a suit" is the bridge which comes after the interlude and the last verse modulates to D. As I said earlier the lyrics can stay as they are but I'd add another Man in a Suit line to match the music in the bridge. Unless you can get it sounding good without. When I sang it felt strange but worked with the man in a suit line repeated.

Glad you like it. Fingers crossed that Frances does as well.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 23, 2013, 08:06:30 pm
Hi,

Done a first idea. I was thinking along Bowie lines a bit. Hope I haven't ruined it.

https://soundcloud.com/digger-72/cyn-vocal-idea/s-GXf6M

I've run the noise reduction over it that's all.
Cheers,

Digger


Stuck it in with a bit of delay and reverb:

https://soundcloud.com/digger-72/cyn-idea/s-NSFlv
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 23, 2013, 08:56:00 pm
Hi Digger,

I'm having trouble importing the vocal into Cubase not sure why. It plays ok in winamp but when imported it slows down, sounds weird. Played the new version and it sounds a lot better.

I'm not sure about the bridge. A bit more sneer I think is required. I imagined it being a bit faster which is why I wanted to add more words to make it fit. The vocal then goes with the increase in the tempo. At present it sounds like the vocal is trying to drag the song back to the original tempo. Hope this makes sense. If you try it and it doesn't fit with the melody etc I'll have a rethink.

Listening to my rough vocal the extra words could be The man in the suit, slips money from her purse, etc.

I don't think you've ruined it. I like what you've done apart from the two points I've mentioned.

Back to working out what's happened to the downloaded vocal.

diadem

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 24, 2013, 10:45:11 am
Hi Diadem,

Do you want the whole second section with more bite, or just the first bit after the interlude? Bear in mind I'm even more rubbish at those sorts of vocal.

Not sure about the wav thing - it just exports as wav. The one with the effects was converted to mp3 in audacity. I can do that to the vocal wav if you like.

In Ableton there is a warp button on the track which will correct tracks if they've exported at slightly different tempos. Don't know about Cubase.

Here's a second version:

https://soundcloud.com/digger-72/cyn-vox-2/s-Yv29c

This is the version without any delay, etc

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 24, 2013, 04:53:04 pm
Hi Digger,

yes just the singing in bridge should be a bit sneery. Sort of you say you're tough but you only pick on people weaker than you.

Cubase just exports the wav file as recorded. It doesn't try and fix the speed, at least on the settings I use.

Its been a long day. I'm off tomorrow so I'll have another play around then. If we have no joy I'll try and find an alternative.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 24, 2013, 08:23:15 pm
Hi Frances,

not heard from you for a while. Do you like the way the song is going? Most of what is good about the song is down to you and I'd like to hear your opinion.

Digger, I've found a way of getting the vocal into Cubase. I like the verses but the bridge doesn't seem to be working the way I expect. I'll put my thinking cap on and try and find out why over the next day or so.

The hot weather is playing havoc with my health, but I've booked a couple of days off, so I can get my bearings back.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 24, 2013, 08:44:17 pm
Hi Diadem,

No worries. Just let me know what you want changing. I tried something more Johnny Rotten over the bridge but it seemed too aggressive for the music.

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 25, 2013, 05:47:38 am
well,well, well, hooray for me then (runs around in a little circle"yay!")ok, i'm done.thanks

i'm very pleased with it so far. sorry about the static, i've uploaded a cleaner version of verse 1 and 2 and will upload the intro tomorrow. it is interfering with the vocals though and will have to be turned down and put in a corner .
 diggers vocals are good,and yes, the rhythm is being difficult with the lyrics in the second part though, we may have to try a few things.
 digger, i feel like you're deliberately avoiding melodic similarities to the first part, sometimes self imitation in an different atmosphere can work. i hope that's helpful in some way. :-\
  the instrumental is awesome.... would it be wrong to put an advertisement in there?
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 25, 2013, 06:51:23 am
well,well, well, hooray for me then (runs around in a little circle"yay!")ok, i'm done.thanks

i'm very pleased with it so far. sorry about the static, i've uploaded a cleaner version of verse 1 and 2 and will upload the intro tomorrow. it is interfering with the vocals though and will have to be turned down and put in a corner .
 diggers vocals are good,and yes, the rhythm is being difficult with the lyrics in the second part though, we may have to try a few things.
 digger, i feel like you're deliberately avoiding melodic similarities to the first part, sometimes self imitation in an different atmosphere can work. i hope that's helpful in some way. :-\
  the instrumental is awesome.... would it be wrong to put an advertisement in there?

Sorry Frances, the static came from my processing. I'll check the cleaner versions to see if I get the same results. I can't hear any conflict with the vocal. I think they compliment each other.

I'm going to have another listen to the bridge. I'm reluctant to start pulling apart what we already have just to fit the words as I like it. Its going to be easier to make the words fit what we have.

The instrumental is slowly getting its added guitar layers. I think I've another 2 or 3 to go before sorting out the balance. I'd like an advertisement for your clean guitar playing, maybe something along the lines of the introduction/verses. It has a very nice Spanish feel to me. Any other advert would be distorted and reversed. Maybe something for our next collaboration?

I'm glad you liked it, I was getting worried you didn't.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 25, 2013, 07:57:20 am
Hi Digger,

today my head is clearer and the weather cooler.

The easy bit. I'd knock out the last "one true love" at the end and slow down the one before it so it drags against the beat and fades off just before the music does.

I feel head in her hand is an important lyric, one of the main reasons I wrote it, sorry, a bit clearer please.

Now the bridge, I hear it like this (contradicts what I wrote previously) The man in the suit (over the Dm) says he's tough (over A#) Liitle John in (over the A) reverse (over the Gm). I'd add after "that's right" as the bridge comes to an end an "he" just to take it a little further into the bar.

So what we have is the bridge starting slow and speeding up. That seems to fit with the way the song develops. We'd have the music getting faster but the vocal dragging a little until it catches up. I'm not sure how difficult that would be to sing, one of the benefits of not knowing what I'm asking technically.

If it doesn't work we'll have to go back to the drawing board. Hopefully it will.

Quite a lot of words but I think we are getting close.

Frances I've imported the redone verses 1 and 2 and they sound a lot better, no static. Just waiting for the introduction. Hopefully I can remember how I joined them together.

diadem

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 25, 2013, 07:22:00 pm
Thanks Frances, all safely downloaded. I'll start putting them together tomorrow. I've got some basic drums and a couple of bass tracks to have a listen to as well.

Should be an interesting day tomorrow. Its a warm muggy night and my batteries are drained.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 25, 2013, 08:06:17 pm
good i was worried it wouldn't work because noise reduction removes big chunks of the spectrum.  i wasn't saying anything before because i got caught in this loop where i'd go to reply and then think i wanted to redo things, but i kept on accidentally hitting this big red button that makes me screw everything up and then mocks me. i don't know why the programmers would include such a feature. so once i was done doing that i just didn't feel like saying anything.
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 25, 2013, 09:15:06 pm
Hi,

So what are the actual lyrics for the bridge now? Are they back to the original, minus the extra "the man in the suit," but with a "he" after "Yes, that's right?" So, in effect ;

The man in the suit
Says he's tough
Little John in reverse
Slips money from her purse
Yes that's right, he
Oh, so tough

You kind of lost me on the dragging the vocal and stuff, so you'll just have to point it out on the next take.  And do you now want the last verse sung like the first two rather than as it is?

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 25, 2013, 10:01:48 pm
Hi Digger,

real quick, it's penalties. the lyrics are

The man in the suit
Says he's tough
Little John in reverse

Sang slowly as per my previous post

The Man in the suit
Slips money from her purse
Yes that's right, he's
Oh, so tough

as per your version

Hope this is clear.



Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 25, 2013, 10:14:44 pm
good i was worried it wouldn't work because noise reduction removes big chunks of the spectrum.  i wasn't saying anything before because i got caught in this loop where i'd go to reply and then think i wanted to redo things, but i kept on accidentally hitting this big red button that makes me screw everything up and then mocks me. i don't know why the programmers would include such a feature. so once i was done doing that i just didn't feel like saying anything.

I know how you feel. I always do loads of takes. Eventually I just say enough and make do with what I've got. The bass took me ages but its done. I just need to check to see if its all in time etc and makes sure it sits ok in the mix. Once that's done I'll put it up. Together with your new pieces.

The football's finished, Norway won on penalties.

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 26, 2013, 07:48:14 am
I've made a very rough mix of the bass and drum to see if you like it. The balances are all over the place. The timing sounds ok to me, but that doesn't mean to say that you'll necessarily agree.

The drums aren't complete. I intend to add some more tom fills and some cymbals once the vocal's done. I'm not madly keen on hi-hats keeping the beat. I've used Frances' beat for the toms and think they sound good. When I tried it with the bass (kick) and snare it took too much attention away from the guitars (which I really like). The drums will not to be processed as well

The bass guitar is a simple 1 5 pattern. I think it goes well with the last verse and is ok in the bridge.

Frances I've left out your new introduction and verses 1 and 2. I've set them up in Cubase and they sound good. I'm waiting until we have a bit more agreed before putting it up.

If we agree to run with the drums and bass I'll start preparing the final mix. In my view we only need the finished vocal, the final drum fills and the lead guitar over the wild violin.

I intend to delete some of my soundcloud files on Sunday, so if anybody wants to download the works in progress they should do so before then.

Once we get to the final mix stage I'll send you both a message with the link. I don't want to spoil the surprise for anybody who's following this thread. The finished song should go up on the audio and video. I could be persuaded to put it on here but I'm not sure how many people visit this section of the board and the work we've done deserves a wider audience, in my view.

Here's the link

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-rough-mix-bass/s-ysKtI

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 27, 2013, 03:40:56 pm
Hi,

I think I'm ready to start the final mix. I'll put a lead guitar line over the violin to help with my balances.  I need to sort out the drums and should have a draft final mix up shortly, fingers crossed.

Frances if you want to take the lead guitar slot feel free. I know what the red light does to you, but bite the bullet and give it a go, we are close to the end. What I have in mind for my guide is a bit miserable.

I think what we have sounds good but will be better when its finished.
 
diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 28, 2013, 05:38:06 am
i had put something up, but decided i didn't like it and took it back.


do you think you could swing the bass a little? i'd have to hear the drums all together to know what i think of them.


Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 28, 2013, 07:26:17 am
i had put something up, but decided i didn't like it and took it back.


do you think you could swing the bass a little? i'd have to hear the drums all together to know what i think of them.

Hi Frances,

Shame you took it back. I've downloaded it and mixed it in with what I did yesterday. The balances aren't right but it sounds fairly good.

I wish I could swing the bass, lack of talent. Its hard enough trying to stop the string noise, count the beats, remember the notes and stop worrying about the soreness in my finger. Ask me in a year's time and I may be able to do it.  :)

I have a similar problem doing the drums. Lack of talent. So what you get is just basic patterns. You have a far better sense of rhythm than me, I can tell from the arpeggio introduction.

The last verse sounds like straight 8ths in my head, matches what I had in mind for the words.

With a bit of luck I'll have a rough final mix ready by the middle of the week. We can see how everything fits together. We could then revisit the bass, drums or anything else after hearing the mix. To me everything is coming together and it sounds fairly good.

diadem

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 28, 2013, 10:01:40 am
Hi Frances,

I've remixed and balanced your guitar solo. I like it. If you could please wait until you hear the first mix I'd appreciate it. If you don't like what I've done we'll take it out. I think it complements what I've done very nicely and would like it to stay.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 29, 2013, 01:44:41 am
unless you do some serious magic i don't think that's getting by without a sympathy cringe or two.
what did you do to your finger?
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 29, 2013, 06:54:20 am
I use it to play the bass. I don't do it often enough to build up the hard skin. So as I make mistake after mistake my finger becomes sore. I could use a pick but I don't like the sound. I'll put learning to swing the bass on my practice schedule.

I hope you're pleasantly surprised when you hear the instrumental interlude. I'll do a bit more mixing today and try and get it finished mid-week.

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 29, 2013, 04:58:13 pm
Hi Frances and Digger,

I have sent you both a link to a final mix. I like it. Everything isn't perfect, but neither was The Wind Cries Mary, they issued the one with all the warts because it had character. Please let me know if you have safely got the link.

Please let me know what you think. As you'll hear all the best bits are down to you two (including Frances' solo).

If you have any comments let me know. My health has taken a bit of a battering today so I'll need a few days to recover. Luckily I'm back at work tomorrow.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: digger72 on July 29, 2013, 05:12:26 pm
Hi Diadem/Frances.

First up I think the interlude sounds quite magical - Don't know why Frances was worried.
As for vocals - well you know what i think of my voice - so I'll let others judge that. It's funny, but the second half, the bit i struggled with, sounds best to me. How things work...

You've done a good job. It's different and interesting. Thanks for letting me take part.

Cheers,

Digger
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on July 29, 2013, 05:54:03 pm
xx--xx Awesome!
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 29, 2013, 08:13:42 pm
Thanks Frances and Digger,

I'll master the mix, do a film to go with it and put the finished tune up towards the beginning of next week. There's a festival in Hull on Saturday and I may get some good film. It will be equally credited to all of us, although apart from the words I feel I've contributed the least. All the amazing stuff was done by you two.

I'd also like permission to put it up on a songwriters forum I joined a few weeks ago.

When I've recovered from today we'll have to do it all again.

I feel privileged to have worked with you both. A big tip of the hat, especially to Frances who set the ball rolling and provided some really inspirational playing. Thank you,

diadem

 
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on July 29, 2013, 09:38:43 pm
Frances and Digger,

once I've mastered the track I'll send you a pm so you can download it. If I'm in the mood I may include a bonus.

Thanks again,

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on August 03, 2013, 08:03:02 am
My apologies the song will not be released this weekend. One of us is not happy with the bridge and the last verse. I have been sent a draft bass line which is beyond my limited ability. I have difficulty playing 8th note rhythms, so 16th note patterns are beyond me at the minute.  From what I've heard the drums and the vocal may have to be redone as well.

I don't feel I've anything left to contribute musically to the final part of the song.

I've decided to post one of my early draft mixes, without the bass and electric rhythm guitar, vocal or full instrumental section, to allow Frances and Digger to work on the bridge and final verse. I'm prepared to complete the final mix but would prefer receiving all the new stems in one go so I can sit down and get it finished. The draft should be enough for Frances and Digger to see what the changes will sound like.

https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/cynestasia-rhythm-mix-23/s-Wg44g

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on August 04, 2013, 03:20:39 am
 either you misunderstood my message in which i said the bass line didn't go rhythmically with the pattern i was doing and sent a different pattern for electric, or digger is playing 16th notes on bass, which is cause for celebration. 

 the electric part that the other tracks were built on was late in the first measure so i think that part is going to be sort of iffy no matter what. i suspect you trustingly placed the first note right on the gridline and then attempted to play along with my idiocy.

 Also, if what you are thinking doesn't lead to you playing music, then what you are thinking is wrong.

if you want to keep the bassline and don't like the new rhythm the i can do something else, like do the same rhythm as the acoustic or something completely different. or we could try it with the acoustic or just have the acoustic by itself, which i think is very beautiful but i also think the vocal would have to be toned down a bit in order to fit well with it. if we have a new bassline i'd like to hear it and we can see if something cool happens from there.





 



Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on August 04, 2013, 09:23:42 am
Hi Frances,

There were three pieces of your work that inspired me to complete the collaboration. The first two are fairly obvious, the initial arpeggio and the violin. The third was your electric guitar part for the bridge and verse. When I got that I knew we had a beginning, a middle and an end. It drives the song to its conclusion, not the drums or the bass. It completes the song and I like it, if I had my way it would stay.

I've said it before and I meant it, this collaboration is a democracy. If you don't like the song and want to change it that's ok. The song wouldn't exist without your ideas. I tried putting a 16 note beat to the drums and I didn't like it. It was far too messy rhythmically. The singing, drums, acoustic guitar and bass compliment each other, your electric guitar is the variation that adds something important to the song.

You may ask why not just re-do it? The simple answer is that everything else is based on your electric guitar, the bass, the drums, the acoustic and the singing and its not always exactly on the beat. If you didn't play the exact same timings we'd have to re-do everything and there's no guarantee we'd get the same results or feel, we could end up chasing our tails.

I know where the raggedy bits are, but what we have is a compromise that allows us to keep the 99% (in my opinion) that is good about the song.

I honestly can't play 16 note rhythm on the bass. I'm working on it on the guitar but if you've no natural rhythm it means a lot of hard work. I have gone back to my practice routine so I've not given up music.

Finally, my bass line is a compromise caused by my lack of technical ability (although I now know I can get a job playing dance music in Bohemia  :))) which I buried in the mix. I don't want to re-do anything. I like what we've done and, in spite of a few bits here and there want it to go out as it is.

To me its finished and I like it.

diadem

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on August 04, 2013, 08:08:04 pm
Yeah, i think we're just going to have to put that little learning experience away for later. just try throwing this in there and see if it makes a difference . if not, eh,  we've done all we could short of redoing the entire thing.

i don't go around expecting anyone to indulge either my taste in beats or tendency to run an old keyboard through an amp with the gain up. they're both eccentricities and i know it.  ;)

i have this placed at 2:10.985, if that matters to your mixing program.

https://soundcloud.com/user4528050/electric-rhythym


oh yeah, i also think the noisy part is better without my little scale thing, if you want to leave it in that's fine but i think its better without it. 

Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on August 04, 2013, 09:10:18 pm
Thanks Frances, it works. I need to process it like I did with the other electric guitar tracks. I generally like what you do, no need to apologise.

I also like what you did with the scale thing. To my ears it improves the instrumental break, so unless you really object I'd like to keep it in. Hopefully I'll put up a new mix tomorrow.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: frances on August 04, 2013, 09:23:56 pm
ok, so far so good, sometimes the effects can change everything, so we'll see once that's done. now i'm excited.
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on August 05, 2013, 10:51:13 am
Hi Frances and Digger,

I've sent you final mix 2. I like it, hope you do too.

diadem
Title: Re: Help required..(melody & chords)
Post by: diademgrove on August 10, 2013, 07:52:08 am
Hi Frances and Digger,

I've sent you another mix. Please let me know what you think.

diadem