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Intermediate Course & Style Modules => Intermediate Course (IM) Lesson Specific Questions => Topic started by: justinguitar on December 03, 2010, 02:35:03 pm

Title: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: justinguitar on December 03, 2010, 02:35:03 pm
Questions...

Lesson Link: http://www.justinguitar.com/en/IM-136-BuildingMelodicPatterns.php
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: sophiehiker on April 18, 2013, 12:27:03 pm
No tabs, but lots of patterns here:

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-012-PatternStudies.php (http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-012-PatternStudies.php)

Hope that helps...   ;)
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: martin_pmd on September 27, 2014, 11:39:54 pm
Hi, I really can't wrap my head around how to play the patterns by just looking at the numbers. Been staring myself blind looking at the numbers and not understanding how to play it.. No problem with the technique, just the numbers. I know pattern 4 and 1.. But that's just from looking at the video of Justin playing them. Can someone please help my understand them. All help would be much appreciated!

Thanks,
Martin
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: TB-AV on September 28, 2014, 12:50:19 am
1. You have to know there are 7 notes to a scale that can be numbered 1 thru 7.
2. Watch the first two minutes of the video again
3. A pattern of 2 4 6 2 would mean to play the 2nd note of the scale, then the 4th, then 6th then 2nd again.

That's all there is to it.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: martin_pmd on September 28, 2014, 02:12:45 am
I think I got it... What got me really confused was.. I thought that the 4 number patterns underneath the video was the same ones he played in the video.. Like the 4th pattern, I thought that was the same pattern as 1-3-2-1 : 2-4-3-2 : 3-5-4-3 etc... That was the 4th one underneath the video.. That's not the case right?

Thanks for the help.. I really didn't want to ask for help, I felt real stupid that i couldn't figure it out...=)
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: TB-AV on September 28, 2014, 02:26:40 am
I didn't watch whole video but the numbers in the patterns are simply scale steps. Not sure if he followed the written material or not.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. You can ask anything you want in general questions.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: 2808jonchan on October 11, 2014, 08:55:07 am
I would like to know what the recommended way of number the notes is:
1. Does one start with number 1 on the lowest root note (in the same way that one practices the scale pattern normally)?
2. Then, what is the number for the next higher octave root note, 1 or 8?
3. How does one number the notes "behind/lower" than the lowest root note and how does one play these?

This problem is better illustrated with the other patterns which have more notes "behind/lower" than the lowest root note. I have an attachment that illustrates this better but I am unable to successfully insert it.

If you watch the video carefully, you can see that Justin starts on the G note with "1".

Or does one keep it simple and simply start at the lowest note in the pattern with number "1"?

Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: TB-AV on October 11, 2014, 02:35:37 pm
@2808jonchan
http://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=35604.new#new
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: kebuenokebueno on April 07, 2015, 11:01:19 pm
Hello,

When building melodic patterns, the return of the pattern has to be symmetrical? I take it is since for the other 3 patterns this is applied. But for the pattern (1-3-2-1 : 2-4-3-2 : 3-5-4-3 : etc), on the going back, instead of doing it exactly backwards symmetrical (as the other 3 patterns), he does something different.

What he does:  ...5345 4234 etc
Should be:       ...3453 2342 etc

Am I correct? Thank you
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: shadowscott007 on April 07, 2015, 11:53:13 pm
I think Justin's symmetry is correct.

Lowest to highest walk back down to lowest 1 3 2 1; 3 5 4 3

Then highest to lowest walk back up to highest 3 1 2 3; 5 3 4 5

Those seem exactly backwards or reversed to me, you descend where you climbed and climb where you descended.  To the ear those are reversed.

I would pair what you describe like this;

3453 and 5435

Low walk up to high, jump to low.  Then high walk to low,jump to high.

Having said that, I don't think you have to maintain symmetry.  Might be good to be able to mix and match as long as you doing it purposely, "my goal is to play it like this and I am".

Symmetry isn't really the goal, linking hands, fingers and ears on something more melodic than straight up and down the scales is the point.

Shadow
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Oren on June 17, 2015, 06:52:41 pm
Hi, I've been trying to do these for almost a month with mixed results.  I can do them slowly, but as soon as I try to put any speed in I miss a note, accidentally mute a string with another finger etc.  I'm spending maybe 30mins a day trying to master these, and in some ways I can see it taking away from the rest of my practise.   

Should I be getting really hung up over these or should I move on?  Also, should I be trying to put them to a metronome, or is this for a later stage?

Thanks for your thoughts in advance! :D
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Oren on June 19, 2015, 12:20:58 pm
Anyone?  :-[
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: stitch101 on June 19, 2015, 05:22:11 pm
I would let it hold you back. Do the exercise no more than 5 minute. Set a timer and when the 5 minutes
is up go on to the rest of you practicing.

Yes use a metronome. If you have a metronome that can speed up start at a comfortable setting and
increase the speed by 5 bpm every 30 second. When you hit a speed where you are making mistakes
Stop and start over.
Remember "Practice Makes Permanent"  so practicing mistake is learning mistakes.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Oren on June 19, 2015, 06:15:38 pm
Cool, thanks for your advice.  I notice that continuing to practice them is in the practice routine in later stages too. 

When using the metronome, for example on the 3 in a row pattern 123, 234, 345 etc.  Should I be going for one click one pick, or set my metronome to 3 beats in a bar?  Equally, on the 1321, 2432, 3543 ... pattern what should I be aiming for on the metronome?

Thanks  :D :D  !
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: stitch101 on June 19, 2015, 06:23:42 pm
The three in a row sound the best as Triplets. Go back and review Justin's lesson on playing triplets
and try using that as your timing.

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-155-Triplets.php 
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: bradt on June 19, 2015, 11:12:59 pm
A metronome is great, but I wouldn't worry about the metronome until you have the pattern down. Once you have it so you can play through it smoothly and cleanly at a reasonable pace, then apply the metronome.

I found that, for me at least, using a metronome too soon often encouraged me to focus on keeping up more than playing cleanly and well.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Oren on June 27, 2015, 01:03:07 pm
Thanks for your help here guys.  Still finding these really hard. 

When using a metronome do you think I need to stick to the 'do it 4 times in a row successfully' rule before upping the speed, as with Justin's recommendation on normal scales up and down?  This seems really tricky?  I can't get past about 55/60bpm when picking on 16ths on the 1234, 2345, 3456..., and the 1321, 2432, 3543... .  I've been stuck here for awhile.   

Ty!
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Oren on June 29, 2015, 03:57:26 pm
Hmm, am I massively overthinking this exercise?  Is it just supposed to be a simple five minutes a day playing around with the patterns to help build up improvising skills?  Or is it more of a technique exercise in trying to work the patterns up and down like a scale to improve hand coordination?

Thoughts anyone, should I just relax over this haha!

Cheers.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: tobyjenner on November 19, 2015, 07:03:42 pm
Sorry to bump an old thread but does anyone know if this link still exists, as I can't find it in the indicies or via a general search ?

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-012-PatternStudies.php    it gives a Doh page  :(

Having said it may not even help me, as the problem I have at the moment is working back down from the 2nd interval on the high e string, for the patterns with interval jumps but hey I only started the other night ! I know I've got something similar to these patterns in Guitar Exercise for Dummies but don't want to muddy the waters. Guess I'll try and work it out for myself and shout up if I get stuck  8)

Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: shadowscott007 on November 19, 2015, 07:56:43 pm
Here is a link to the youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c8o2HdUuZ4

And here is a link to the web page...

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/IM-136-BuildingMelodicPatterns.php

I think SC-012 became IM-136 or something like that...
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: tobyjenner on November 19, 2015, 08:15:25 pm
Shadow

Thanks for that, may explain why that links no longer working. I was looking through the Help thread of IM 136 when I came across it, as I was trying to work out the reverse patterns and thought they may be included on that page. However, I spent about 15 minutes this evening slow working it out and think I'm getting there, so it will no doubt all turn to rats "wotsits" when I turn on the metronome  ;D Early days though.

Just like the scales with metronome playing 1/8th, the first reverse on the top e just felt wrong (sort of off beat) but now I just ignore it and drop back automatically  8)
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: tobyjenner on December 04, 2015, 08:01:31 pm
In the goals for IM3 Justin's suggest we should be applying these patterns to both Maj and Min Pent Scales, plus making up 4 of our own patterns.

I've been basing the 4 patterns in the lessons on the Maj scale and therefore thinking of the scale as
71234567123456712 - obviously starting at the G / 1 as root. So I've extended the patterns up to the e string and then back down to the E, using this annotation. But using them like this doesn't easily equate them to the Min Pent 123451234512.

For example I've already made up a couple of patterns of my own like this :

Up      1-5-3 : 2-6-4 : 3-7-5 : 4-1-6 : 5-2-7 : 6-3-1 : 7-4-2 : 1-5-3 : 2-6-4 : 3-7-5 : 4-1-6 : 5-2-7-1 :                       
Down 1-4-6 : 7-3-5 : 6-2-4 : 5-1-3 : 4-7-2 : 3-6-1 : 2-5-7 : 1-4-6 : 7-3-5 : 6-2-4 : 5-1-3 : 4-7-2 : 3-6-1 :

Up    1-5-3-4 : 2-6-4-5 : 3-7-5-6 : 4-1-6-7 : 5-2-7-1 : 6-3-1-2 : 7-4-2-3 : 1-5-3-4 : 2-6-4-5 : 3-7-5-6 : 4-1-6-7 : 5-2-7-1
Down 1-4-6-5 : 7-3-5-4 : 6-2-4-3 : 5-1-3-2 : 4-7-2-1 : 3-6-1-7 : 2-5-7-6 : 2-4-6-5 : 1-3-5-4 : 7-2-4-3 :  6-1-3-2 : 5-7-2-1

Should I be thinking of the Maj Scale as "note numbers" and not intervals ie 1 to 16 and the Pent as 1 to 10?

Or do I just map out separate patterns for the Min Pent based on Justin's patterns and any I make up and stick to intervals ?

Appreciate any help from those who've not nodded off  ;D

Cheers

Toby
 8)

 
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: stitch101 on December 04, 2015, 09:11:13 pm
If your goint to stick with intervals (that's what I'd do) I would thing of the minor pent
as 1 b3 4 5 b7 1 and the Major scale as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.
You trying to make melodic phases. So if you where to play

1-5-3 : 2-6-4 : 3-7-5

You could start on any root note on the neck. If you are playing in G find a G note any G note
and use the intervals from there.
If you are only using pattern one try starting on the G on the D string. If you number the notes
1-16 you will run out of string or you'll have to go up the neck on the e string.

Once you have the intervals in your head don't think of them as numbers but as sounds that
either sound good or of by one tone.

Figure out how to play Do a Deer (from the sound of music.) It is the major scale broken up exactly
the way your are trying to do it and it's already a song. Once you get that down you'll understand
how melodies work. You can play it in any key just start on the root and continue.


 


Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: tobyjenner on December 04, 2015, 10:21:25 pm
Thanks for that Stitch, I think I was heading in that direction, as I'd mapped out a couple of Min Pent patterns to mess with
 (R-5-4 : b3-b7-5 : 4-R-b7 etc for example). Seemed a better way of embedding the intervals in my mind and the gaps between them, which I've been getting slowly.

Justin's lesson is based around the E-Shape G Major so 1 to 16 takes you from 6th string 3rd fret to 1st string 5th fret, so no running out of strings but I like the idea of trying these around the neck on different roots AND thinking of the intervals of sound, as I'm pretty hopeless at ear training/transcribing at the moment.

Guess I'll sit down with the lesson patterns and rewrite them for min pent or just try to play them over that scale and see how it goes.

Thx again.

Toby
 8)
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: stitch101 on December 04, 2015, 10:40:35 pm
Toby trust me try figuring out the do a deer song form sound of music.
It will open your mind up to melodies. It uses every note of the major scale and then
jumps up in thirds.

You must have seen the movie the sound of music when you where a kid.
If not here's a clip. I know it's a sappy song but it is exactly what you are learning
on the guitar. Do is 1 ra is 2 me is 3 and so on. Each word is an interval of the scale
just play one note at a time like words.




Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: tobyjenner on December 05, 2015, 07:30:45 am
Oh yes I know it well and that sounds like an good exercise to actually work out the melody, rather than look it up. As long as I don't start having nightmares about Julie Andrews, I'll give it a go  :D
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: captainamerica on March 13, 2017, 11:08:56 pm
Delete
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: captainamerica on March 15, 2017, 06:57:34 pm
I do have a few questions I'll pose:

1) might have missed it in the video/text, but is the picking supposed to be all down, up or alternative picking when doing the 4 patterns Justin provided, and any new ones we create?  Doing these patterns would be FAR easier if all were one direction...

2) if it should be alternative, should it always retain the same direction as when doing the entire scale from the root onward?  Meaning note #1 is always down, #2 will always be up, etc, all the way through, so that each of the 16 possible notes is "hardwired" facing a certain picking direct, or can/should that be varied?

So even if we start from note #5 in the pattern, if that was "down" in the "regular" pattern of 1-16 when alternate picking, will it always be down in any new patterns? 

I've noticed it is rather challenging to do the variant patterns while always keeping the same precise picking direction from the "base" scale; it requires another layer of thought that slows me down.  If all the picking were to be "allowed" as variable, then the patterns would flow much faster (I hope I'm explaining this clearly).
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: jtbrown1 on March 21, 2017, 01:06:23 am
I do have a few questions I'll pose:

1) might have missed it in the video/text, but is the picking supposed to be all down, up or alternative picking when doing the 4 patterns Justin provided, and any new ones we create?  Doing these patterns would be FAR easier if all were one direction...

2) if it should be alternative, should it always retain the same direction as when doing the entire scale from the root onward?  Meaning note #1 is always down, #2 will always be up, etc, all the way through, so that each of the 16 possible notes is "hardwired" facing a certain picking direct, or can/should that be varied?

So even if we start from note #5 in the pattern, if that was "down" in the "regular" pattern of 1-16 when alternate picking, will it always be down in any new patterns? 

I've noticed it is rather challenging to do the variant patterns while always keeping the same precise picking direction from the "base" scale; it requires another layer of thought that slows me down.  If all the picking were to be "allowed" as variable, then the patterns would flow much faster (I hope I'm explaining this clearly).
As you mentioned, when playing the straight major scale, I made sure the alternate picking lines up exactly the way it's supposed to go. But when doing the melodic lines I'm using alternate picking but I'm not worrying about if the picking is the same each time through. Not sure if it's "right," but it works for me so far.

The only pattern that makes sense to me to use all downstrokes is the 1-3-2-4-3-5-etc. All other patterns I alternate pick. That's what feels right to me.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: jtbrown1 on March 21, 2017, 01:10:01 am
My plan is to put these patterns on the metronome just like the straight major scale. That's the only way to get them so familiar to my fingers that I can throw them in when improvising.

It's a plan, at least...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: captainamerica on April 06, 2017, 05:19:17 pm
Have to admit, I was not very happy with this exercise; felt it was not useful and while it might have been good for lead guitarists - which is not my goal, the time being invested was not paying/going to pay much back in dividends.

BUT...having decided to put more time/thought/effort into it, I am realizing the benefits, at least for me, are these:

1) it forces you to master the notes of the scale and eliminate them as something you need to think of.  My brain is simply not powerful enough to have to think what is the next note in the scale of this pattern while playing it - I can only concentrate on one thing, either the scale or the pattern - not both.

2) it will force your picking hand to improve in picking the proper strings as you go back and forth between them.  Do I make mistakes and pick the wrong strings?  Sure, but not as bad as when I began approaching this exercise.

3) it improves your ear where you can better judge the proper notes in the pattern and how they should sound.  Some patterns work better than others, but you still end up developing a better ear to judge how they sound, or should sound.  I just started the aural training lessons - better late than never - and will also start focusing more on the Justin ear training, which I admit I've spent less time on than the technical stuff. 

4) Your creativity in playing will improve as it forces you to think of the scale positions - I, IV, V, etc as you build a pattern and play through it.  As a next step, I might start including some of these patterns from Justin and those I created as part of the Improv Practice over a backing track.  A lot of Justin's exercises can be combined to improve your playing, and this I believe might also be a good one.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: stitch101 on April 06, 2017, 06:14:17 pm
Quote
A lot of Justin's exercises can be combined to improve your playing,

Just one correction.

All of Justin's exercises can be combined to improve your playing

For example When learning a new scale, riff, arpeggio etc combine it with the minimum movement
exercise. You need to learn it slowly any way. 

The one minute change isn't just for chord changes. When change patterns in a solo practice going
from one the the other then back get the movement between licks fluid and automatic.

Ear training is for everything you learn and should be the #1 thing you rely on when practicing
anything.

You can take everything taught in the BC and apply to everything you are learning and will learn
latter on.

Quote
I am realizing the benefits, at least for me
Good to see you've seen the light.  ;)
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: jeff00 on October 31, 2017, 02:08:25 am
When I try to play these patterns in reverse (high notes to low) there are certain note that sound particularly funny to me. For example in the G major scale I try doing the 1234 2345 etc starting on the high A string I play it like:

A G F# E
G F# E D
F# E D C       <------this C sounds bad
...
...
F# E D C      <-------this C also sounds bad

Now that I took the time to write it out I found a pattern of which sounds funny. The F# E D C pattern. It's weird because it sounds perfectly normal playing the pattern from low to high. I just sounds bad from high to low.

Am I getting the notes wrong? Are my ears out of tune? (I double checked an my guitar is in tune). Does this sound funny to anyone else?
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: embishop on October 31, 2017, 05:55:46 pm
I'm working on the patterns from this exercise as well, had just played them all through as part of my practice before I checked out the Forum. To my ears the C sounded fine. It could be though because when you start on the F# your ears might be thinking that's the key, not the G scale, and you'd expect to hear C# in that scale. However, you'd also get sharps on the D and the E! But, the sound not seeming right could I think just be because of the starting note.

Mari
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: coboy on November 02, 2017, 09:34:31 am
Hi hello been working on this but not making any headway tried numbering the scale end up with more notes. When I try to create a pattern im lost ends up sounding terrible and forget how to back track where I was. I wonder what it is im missing here just cant figure it out.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: embishop on November 03, 2017, 02:55:26 am
Hi coboy, are you having problems with all or some of the patterns? My best input I think would be to go slow. I was finding it challenging to work on alternate picking speed playing the scale up and down, then switching to melodic patterns. I slowed them all down and then i could play them, and start speeding them up.
Mari
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: coboy on November 03, 2017, 08:28:47 am
Thanks for the reply Mari ill slow it down and keep working on it.
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: Chrono1894 on September 17, 2020, 01:34:24 am
Hi all-

I'm having a really hard time in this lesson. Any tips to create the melodic patterns? I've seen that other people in this thread have numbered the Maj and Min scales with 7 numbers instead of 16 or 12 respectively, but I don't really understand the logic behind this.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: IM-136 • Building Melodic Patterns
Post by: TChalms on October 22, 2020, 05:08:48 am
I came here with a question on these exercises, and I see that there are lots of questions. I can clear up a few things first.

I've been starting these exercises on C, 6th string 8th fret. Then all the notes in the major scale have no sharps or flats. C get the number 1, D is 2, E is 3, F is 4, G is 5, A is 6, B is 7, C is 1 and we're into the 2nd octave with the different scale fingering pattern. When we arrive at C on the 1st string 8th fret, we play the D as Justin suggests and then start down.

On the way down the numbering goes C is 1, B is 7, A is 6, G is 5, F is 4, E is 3, D is 2, C is 1, B is 7 and we carry on down to C then B then C.

When we do a different pattern, the numbers stay with those notes. So 1321 is C E D C, and so on. As we go up a scale we count up, as we come down a scale we count down.

When we have one pattern in one key mastered we have a choice to go to a different key with the same pattern, or do a different pattern in the same key.

I found it interesting that by mastering the major scale pattern in C, I would make mistakes when I started on A or G. So I practiced that.

And then I mastered a second pattern in all keys and I'm getting close to a third pattern and a fourth pattern. So I'm getting close to bumping the metronome up.

The question I have was asked by someone else above. I found it easy to do alternating picking  on the major scale. And I can start the major scale with either a down stroke or an up stroke and I can do alternating picking either way. Some of the other patterns are not so easy to do both ways. I find myself getting tangled up in my alternating picking when switching strings. Sometimes two up strokes or two down strokes is quicker and easier. So the question is if alternating picking is to be strictly practiced at this point?

But my goal with these scales is to learn to pick the right string at the right time, and use minimal motions with my fret hand. But no more than 5, maybe 10, minutes of scales per day - or else I would go crazy.