Justin Guitar Community

Tools of the Trade => Computer and OS => Topic started by: TB-AV on September 24, 2010, 07:09:02 pm

Title: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 24, 2010, 07:09:02 pm
Considering updating a DAW.

Anyone that has any recent specs I would be interested in. Must be specific to music/video/low noise etc..

Question 1 - why does this PSU have 4-12v rails? what is the advantage. the remainder of their line is 1-12v rail.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817610003


Question 2 - anyone have any specifics on good ASUS mobo's. I'v heard nothing but good on ASUS for DAW but they have some many offerings now.

Question 3 - thoughts on i7

Question 4 - video card  Generally speaking DAW does not need a high performance video card nor does something like Vegas. I have normally gone with Matrox dual heads. Open to any any thoughts in this realm.

I guess that's it for now. Maybe some thoughts if you have any.

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 24, 2010, 09:25:52 pm
1: Videogames. To be more specific, most modern videocards need to be run off two 12v rails.
You can see it on my old system's config in this pic : http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3924312698/
Note the two cables coming out of the top videocard.

And then there's SLI/Crossfire (multiple videocards working in parallel)...
So that's why they do that.
I would suggest you buy an Antec or Corsair PSU instead TB, i've had some bad experiences with Nexus in the past, done a few very troublesome RMA processes for customers.. very frustrating.

2: I hate Asus due to their nonexistant customer support and shoddy software, so i have no answers for you on that, sorry.

3: It's great for gaming, but in your case an intel 775 quadcore or even something from AMD could work just as well, for less cash.
I'd try to go for at least 3 ghz or something close on an AMD or an intel 775, for an i7 (6 cores) i'd say at least 2.6 ghz.

4: I'd get at least a nice GTS 450, from EVGA, Gigabyte or PNY, in that order.
Cheap, could play games on relative settings, and could be used to render/convert still, without being too expensive

5: G.skill RAM. Before our business whent the way of the dodo, we started selling this brand, our customers loved it.
Very stable, very low rate of faulty hardware compared to, say, Corsair, and even good enough for overclockers, at a normal price.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Ragz on September 24, 2010, 10:13:17 pm
Considering updating a DAW.

Anyone that has any recent specs I would be interested in. Must be specific to music/video/low noise etc..

Question 1 - why does this PSU have 4-12v rails? what is the advantage. the remainder of their line is 1-12v rail.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817610003


Question 2 - anyone have any specifics on good ASUS mobo's. I'v heard nothing but good on ASUS for DAW but they have some many offerings now.

Question 3 - thoughts on i7

Question 4 - video card  Generally speaking DAW does not need a high performance video card nor does something like Vegas. I have normally gone with Matrox dual heads. Open to any any thoughts in this realm.

I guess that's it for now. Maybe some thoughts if you have any.



Answers:

1) Unless you're planning on running a bunch of extras in the machine that all require a lot of power, multi rail is fine. Single rail is better when you want to run say 4 GPU's that all need power from the psu. Otherwise, i doubt you're going to need to worry about single vs multi rail psu's.

2) Not I. I used to have nothing but trouble with their motherboards, so i always went with Abit. But that was many moons ago.

3) Best thing to do with this is a few comparisons. Also consider AMD Phenom II X4 cpu's if you're considering i7.

4) Unless you're gaming, just go with a decent powered card. Anything in the nVidia range from the 6xxx series on would do you. If you want to play games too, then you'll want something beefier.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Ragz on September 24, 2010, 10:37:57 pm
some good reviews on PSU's at http://www.jonnyguru.com/
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 24, 2010, 11:03:31 pm

1) Unless you're planning on running a bunch of extras in the machine that all require a lot of power, multi rail is fine. Single rail is better when you want to run say 4 GPU's that all need power from the psu. Otherwise, i doubt you're going to need to worry about single vs multi rail psu's.


An explanation about multi vs single from JonnyGuru http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548862
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Ragz on September 24, 2010, 11:45:43 pm
and a line that was really my point:

The bottom line is, for 99% of the folks out there single vs. multiple +12V rails is a NON ISSUE. It's something that has been hyped up by marketing folks on BOTH SIDES of the fence.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 12:28:54 am
Ok thanks guys.

On the AMD vs Intel thing. I have had both AMD and Intel and know they are both very good but I am also using the experiences of musicians/engineers/IT pros and when you combine all that the Intel platform is way I am going. It really get's into splitting hairs realm but I've already decided in Intel.

As far as ASUS, again I have several IT/working musicians that swear by ASUS for DAW, laptop, everything for a several year period. I have had Gigabyte and I think one of them still is. It failed once after a good long while and I just called them and they sent me new one. Have also had ABit and others. So ASUS is not a deal breaker/maker but I heard any widespread good reports about any other single unit so that's why I'm still leaning that way. I expect any brand to fail.

10-4 on the 12v. I'll mark that concern off my list.

Dan do you know the noise specs on a good antek or other. The Nexus is 15dB. I haven;t read the link yet from Ragz.

I forgot to mention. The video needs to be Dual head minimum. wouldn't mind a Triple or quad setup. Again noise level is an issue so no big fans. What do I need to look out for if I wanted to run two video cards.

also is there anything on a modern mobo that allows you to run a standard ide card. If not I have to consider getting a card for my digital interface ( and they are not cheap ).

Going with WD Black SATA drives. Any probs there?

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 25, 2010, 12:34:51 am
and a line that was really my point:

The bottom line is, for 99% of the folks out there single vs. multiple +12V rails is a NON ISSUE. It's something that has been hyped up by marketing folks on BOTH SIDES of the fence.

That link was meant as a confirmation of what you said Ragz, no need to get all defensive  ;)

@ TB : Corsair AX750 or 850, both are around the 15-20db mark under what would be full load use for you.

As for a dual monitor setup, i'd go for a (EVGA or PNY) GTX 460 1GB version, it has two DVI ports (as do most modern cards these days, even my old 9800 GT had two DVI ports).
When using two videocards (or more), the motherboard needs to be SLI compatible, which is usually noted in the mobo's name.

If you want to run three or more monitors you'll most likely be looking towards Matrox again instead though, if you want to keep things as simple as possible, either a card that natively supports 4 monitors, or their triplehead2go system on top of a regular card.

As for an ide (controller?) card, i'd assume they make those in PCI-E standard too, so you should be able to get one that works quite easily.

And WD black HDD's, well...
Assuming you mean the Caviar Black drives, i've got 4 running here.
Smooth, good transfer rates, and fairly quiet.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 04:30:15 am
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131346

Are they basically saying that card can do 4 videos at once?

2 DVI
1 HDMI
1 DP

========

WD - yes to what you said.

========

The chart I read on the corsair 850 showed 16dB at 50% and near 40dB at 100%   although I did read a good report of it as being quiet.

Also looking at this combo....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.495060
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 25, 2010, 12:22:23 pm
ATI card + passive cooling = recipe for disaster.
ATI cards are known for running VERY hot with active cooling (we used to refer to ATI systems as 'overpowered space heaters'), so i don't want to imagine what would happen if you ran that card in anywhere but a near arctic setting with little heating.

As for triple monitor support, look here : http://sites.amd.com/us/underground/products/eyefinity/Pages/eyefinity.aspx
Any ATI hardware that supports Eyefinity should be able to do triple monitors (READ THAT PAGE CAREFULLY !! there's a few 'but's' and 'if's' to triple monitors).
But for god's sake don't buy a passively cooled card unles you like your mobo deep fried.

@ the WD's : well get 'em then  ;)

As for the mobo/cpu combo, i can't help you there, like i said, i don't trust Asus hardware.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Wishbone on September 25, 2010, 02:33:54 pm
I've always run Abit mobo's, myself. As a rule they seem to have a lot less frills and be a little bit less user friendly, but have always been rock solid stable in any build I've thrown them in. I've used one Gigabyte board before, in a custom build that had been specified down to the last detail by the buyer who supplied the components and that worked out ok (which was a good job, 'cos the twit had a lot to learn about 'hardware compatibility') . I've used a couple of Asus boards and have to say there were no problems with them, although my patience has worn out with Asus over the last couple of years regarding the substandard boards they use in their laptops. I've had to scrap four Aspire's in the last twelve months 'cos the boards were shot and the cost of replacement is too high, even on refurb boards. As a result, I have very little confidence in their hardware as of late.

PSU: I'm partial to the OCZ Stealth X Stream series. Running a 600w in my system right now and I've used them on a couple of builds. Stable supplies, very quiet and more cables and connectors than I can use.

Graphics: I've just bought an MSI GTX460 Cyclone 1Gb .......... It's a lovely graphics card that runs everything I throw at it full belt, dual DVI output + HDMI. Dunno how that would help you decide on one for a DAW, but I thought I'd throw that in there for consideration.

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 02:48:23 pm
any known issues with old faithful?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814106024

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 02:55:04 pm
Quote
Graphics: I've just bought an MSI GTX460 Cyclone 1Gb .......... It's a lovely graphics card that runs everything I throw at it full belt, dual DVI output + HDMI.

Can you run all three of those at once? That would actually be next to ideal. I could run mixer on left, tracks on right and softsynth/etc on a nice screen above center on the HDMI. A 4th remote monitor would be nice but not necessary.


EDIT: just took a look at the MSI, pretty big fan on it. Again I'm concerned about actual noise. Not, perceived in various environments. Also I won't be doing any gaming so anything that is specific to that sector would be overkill.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Wishbone on September 25, 2010, 03:00:22 pm
Not entirely sure, as it's not something I've needed to try before. Dan would know the answer, I should imagine, though it would be an interesting exercise finding out.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 03:15:54 pm
I'll check into some various brand mobos.

Quote
I've used one Gigabyte board before, in a custom build that had been specified down to the last detail by the buyer who supplied the components and that worked out ok

That's actually the key. Over the years, lot's of DAWs were spec'd to the last detail and they resulted in very reliable and often over clockable, quiet, and cool running systems. Lot's have changed now though and OCing is not really important. There are just so many new things out there. You used to be able to find a recipe and just go with it.






Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 25, 2010, 05:26:39 pm

Can you run all three of those at once?
Nope, dual screen is the most Nvidia can do software/hardware wise.
You'd need that Matrox triplehead2go system i mentioned if you want more.

EDIT: just took a look at the MSI, pretty big fan on it. Again I'm concerned about actual noise. Not, perceived in various environments. Also I won't be doing any gaming so anything that is specific to that sector would be overkill.
You can control the fanspeed via speedfan or EVGA´s ´Precision´ application.
On it's own it isn't noisy at all, and unless you run up the fan speed for heavy gaming, it won't get noisy.
I can't hear my GTX 470 over my case fans (unless i manually crank it up for gaming), and my case fans are so quiet i can't hear them over my typing.

As for your question about ye olde faithfull Matrox card, it should run fine, as long as you can get the drivers for whatever OS you're using, and from their support page it seems even win7 64 bit is supported, so that should be fine.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 25, 2010, 06:38:45 pm
I see some people simply run 2 -dual video cards. Some are quite cheap, like $50. so that's a thought.

I also just realized that teh new mobo's still have a couple PCI slots. I don;t know why i thought those slots had been done away with. So that's a relief. I need one PCI slot for my Digiface card.

Been looking at the GByte mobo's. Still not sure on that. I also like the idea of a SSD system drive and SATA6/USB3 for a little future proofing but don't want to run the $$ up.

Oh well...

So far I've got as given .....
4 space rack case - already have
RME PCI adapter - already have
WD Black drives - can get any time.
--- If I get a SATA6 drive will  it run on a SATA 3 connector in the event I don't get a SATA6 mobo? I assume it would fall back but not sure.

I'm looking at this cooler... http://www.gelidsolutions.com/products/index.php?lid=2&cid=12&id=46 Gelid Tranquillo

so I'm still needing the main stuff

CPU
Mobo
Mem
PSU - Still not sold on that Corsair yet although I see it mentioned a lot.

I need to make a spread sheet to keep from forgetting what I'm looking at.





Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Ragz on September 25, 2010, 08:49:16 pm
you can run 3 monitors on an nvidia card.

You just need more than one card :)

I've seen setups running multiple dual head cards to get a full 360 view on MS Flight Sim. Using 8 monitors
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 25, 2010, 11:32:17 pm
That's at least 4 cards...
Don't want imagine how much power consumption that'd be.

And i stand corrected, Nividia has indeed made it possible to run as many monitors as you want with SLI'd cards.
That's what i get for going to work in a damn guitar shop i guess, i miss all the interesting IT developments  :'(
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: flyhead on September 25, 2010, 11:40:35 pm
..... i miss all the interesting IT developments  :'(
(http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/NerdPassions.png)
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Wishbone on September 26, 2010, 12:16:24 am
It happens, Dan................ There was a time I used to be on top of every latest bit of hardware, latest developments, new gadgets, compatibility issues, etc...... I could build a system in my head to spec from what I knew was current. It takes time away from actually living your life, though; and these days I just don't have the time. So I do all the reading and comparisons as and when required. I don't do so many builds anymore, so it's not a biggie.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 26, 2010, 12:51:02 am
Yeah, I gave up trying to stay current. The last thing I built was a P4 and that was pretty easy.

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 26, 2010, 04:14:16 pm
Ok, any bad news on this item?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128423

People seem to like it. Seems to have everything I need. Has correct TI chipset for Firewire. Fast SATA and USB
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Wishbone on September 26, 2010, 06:17:09 pm
TB-

Looks like it has everything you need. The best you can really go on is the opinions of others, really. See if you can't find reviews and write ups and, if you're happy with the consensus, go for it.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 26, 2010, 06:54:42 pm
Ok, any bad news on this item?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128423

People seem to like it. Seems to have everything I need. Has correct TI chipset for Firewire. Fast SATA and USB

My former colleagues tell me it's an often used budget i7 board, no  (line) persistent defects, and they seem to like the dual BIOS chips a lot for testing new BIOS versions.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 26, 2010, 08:32:37 pm
Well I might give that one a shot.

Look like several people are running GSkill mem on it as well.

So I guess I'll try that. they have 6G (2x3) ddr3 1600 for $154

No DDR3 2000 in stock


GByte Mobo
GSkill memory

still need to sort through the PSU and Vid offereings





Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 26, 2010, 10:24:27 pm
1600 is good enough TB, you probably won't run 2000 on full speed anyway without some OC'ing on the processor.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 27, 2010, 12:17:00 am
That's pretty much what I figured too. It's a bit of a pain trying to figure which boards run what naively and which will run it but need to be OCd.

I definitely don't want to generate extra heat just for some tiny possible speed boost.

Of course if the new stuff is on sale or similar priced I'll go ahead and buy it.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 27, 2010, 05:30:05 pm
OK, how about CoolerMaster Silent Pro M850

It's supposed to be very quiet although I have not found actual specs yet. But <16dB to start. Looks like high quality parts from one review.

Price looks good too.

So far I'm leaning

WD
GByte
GSkill - Might check Mushkin too, I've got that now and it seems gtg. Just have to get timing exactly right ( and write it down! so I don't forget if bios gets reset )
CoolerMaster

Also case fans by Noctua down in the 10dB range. I remember researching those a long time ago as well.


Any thoughts good / bad on Cooler Master. Failures?

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 27, 2010, 08:31:20 pm
OK, how about CoolerMaster Silent Pro M850

It's supposed to be very quiet although I have not found actual specs yet. But <16dB to start. Looks like high quality parts from one review.

Price looks good too.

So far I'm leaning

WD
GByte
GSkill - Might check Mushkin too, I've got that now and it seems gtg. Just have to get timing exactly right ( and write it down! so I don't forget if bios gets reset )
CoolerMaster

Also case fans by Noctua down in the 10dB range. I remember researching those a long time ago as well.


Any thoughts good / bad on Cooler Master. Failures?



Although i love coolermaster's cases, i never had much luck with their PSU's.
Blew up 2 over 4 months, then switched to my current fave (Corsair), and haven't looked back since.

As for Mushkin, it's great RAM if you can get it at decent prices.
Over here they charged insane amounts so i never got my hands on any good sets, except for specified builds for customers, so i can't speak from very much personal experience.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 27, 2010, 10:30:02 pm
Quote
Although i love coolermaster's cases, i never had much luck with their PSU's.
Blew up 2 over 4 months, then switched to my current fave (Corsair), and haven't looked back since.

What is your Volt/Hz over there? Is it 120/60 like here or 240/50?

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Wishbone on September 27, 2010, 11:08:22 pm
220-240v @ 50Hz in Europe, TB.

Gives you a nice belt  ;D
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 27, 2010, 11:34:23 pm
220 at 50 Hz, i believe.
Some parts of Holland are @ 230 though.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: DeadlyChicken on September 29, 2010, 02:46:41 am
Bit late to the conversation, but will add my two penneth anyway ;)

When building a system from the ground up, I like to start with CPU .. decide on intel v AMD ( you already done that )  I tend to lean towards intel because, lets be honest, pretty much all software is written on intel CPU's.  It may be a bit silly, also when I did use AMD's back in the XP2400 days .. they were sooo freakin hot .. had to have a proper airconditioner unit to keep them cool.

The i7 is the flagship .. and may end up producing some gold, but atm I think the i5 produces the best bang for buck .. remember that when choosing your CPU you are also deciding a lot about your motherboard.

The i7 come in a flavour that has a totally different socket which may eventually produce fruit but presently isnt doing anything for you .. getting a 775 core2 will limit you and make it impossible to move to an in at a later stage.

So now you have your CPU selected, motherboard next ... so first we decide on a chipset .. again I tend to lean towards intel here.  It used to be the case that you also decided on your possible graphics card combinations at this point, but I think that some boards are now both SLI and crossfire capable, the chipset will also decide on what kind of RAM, obviously DDR3 is got to be the way forward but its worth paying attention to the bus speed and  amke sure that it matches your other hardware.

I used to use Gigabyte boards all the time, they were the first dual BIOS boards and semed really slid ... then I had two die on me ( admittedly after many years service ) and I switched to Asus .. so far just had one weird experience with them where the motherboard appeared to die .. then after a lot of mucking about it started working again ? they seem pretty solid .. but its often worth checking that you need all the features they sell .. as you can buy a cheaper motherboard without a lot of those features.  Msi may be touted as the budget brand .. but if you pick the right board, they can be just fine.

For RAM I still like corsair RAM, but the GSkill is rated highly.
I like corsair PSU's also especially the modular ones which just means you doon't need all that excess power sockets hanging around inside your case, which can give you better airflow and therefore cooler / quieter PC.

video cards .. are they really that different ? I went ATI last time I had to choose and have been happy with the results .. for some customers recently I brought some cheap nVidia GTS 250 or something so they could dual screen and they worked fine.  In the past I have had my system setup with three screens .. I just had two similar graphics cards in the system,  I think it was an ATI 3870 and an ATI HD3480 or something.  There was an issue that you needed to use teh same video driver for both cards so they had to be similar or it wouldnt work .. but after that it was fine ..  I did have a few stability issues around the same time .. and sometimes my system woul boot up and only one of teh video cards would be noticed.  Not sure of the reason but eventually I switched back to dual screen as 3 was just a waste anyhow.  3 screens is possible and works if you want to have say one screen setup with a bunch of monitors or something on it so you can keep track of whats going on and then use the othe two screens .. but if you think you can use 3 the same way you do 2 its not quite like that. or at least it wasn't for me.  2 is optimum :p

I  have found that the stock cooler tht comes with intel cpus tends to work fine and not be very noisy.  I run at about 40 degrees and still under 50 under load, which is well within the limits of top performance.  If you do want to get a better cooler though .. make sure you get some arctic silver thermal compound too as it really does help imo.

I know you have a case but for completeness sake I like the antec ones .. particularly the p18x range I think I have the p182, great case lots of space, good cable management system, and a secret stash box where you can put your weed in there. errm your spare screws and stuff.

its still pretty easy to build your own .. there are more variations to worry about like the type of ram and what not .. but installing windows is a whole lot easier ;)

Oh and if you are planning on doing osmething memory intensive and want more than 4 GB (very affordable) then you might want to consider using the 64bit version of windows wwhich can actually make us of more than 4 GB.  But make sure that all the important software you want to use is compatible with 64 bit first.  Most stuff is ok, but there are still a few old apps that do not like it at all.  Same with drivers.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on September 29, 2010, 04:18:57 am
No you're not too late. I'm still deciding.

Actually today I thought I might go with this....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131665

It's got a 5 year warranty. Along with an  i7 - 950 3.06ghz

The support docs on the Mobo give you a list of exact memory that is known to work with whichever processor you get. So that makes life easy too.

Still haven't picked the PSU or vid yet.

--------

Lemme ask you something if you had a couple of cards that were the little PCIe type. and ran out of slots. Would they plug into the newer longer PCIe x16 slots and simply not use all the connections?

Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: Dan Graves on September 29, 2010, 04:46:38 am

Lemme ask you something if you had a couple of cards that were the little PCIe type. and ran out of slots. Would they plug into the newer longer PCIe x16 slots and simply not use all the connections?



I do that with my soundcard becauce my videocard is so big it covers my 1X PCI-E slot.
So yes, lower lane cards will work in bigger lane slots, they scale down accordingly.
Title: Re: PC Build questions
Post by: TB-AV on October 02, 2010, 12:23:59 am
10-4. Sorry I didn't see the reply.

I doub't I will need it but just wanted to be on the safe side.

Pulled the trigger on a CPU today. NewEgg had a $25 discount and free shipping so I went for it.

Still reading on the Mobo and Mem. I was surprised to read some the ASUS spec data that showed some mem to only work in 4 of the 6 slots. I think it was the cas 4 4 4 14 and then some was clocked down to 1300 from 1600 to get all 6 slots and 12 Gig.

I assume most Mobo's are similar. I'm still deciding what to buy. Having a hard time figuring out the differences in the various models. Even ASUS, I can't figure what the differences are and there can be a $100 diffference