JA-021 • Major Type Jazz Chord Extensions

[justinguitar]

Q.

Lesson Link: http://www.justinguitar.com/en/JA-021-Major7ChordSubs.php

[groovey2shoes]

Hi Justin,
Just like to say that I think your website is brilliant. I teach guitar in local authority schools and I have recommended your beginners course to all the heads of music departments in our area for use in the classroom. Whether they take up my recommendation or not is another thing but if they do I'll let you know. The emphasis of your teaching is different from mine but highly compatible. I'm even considering using some of your lessons as homework to explain techniques and principles and devoting the lesson time to applying those techniques and principles - could be a big time saver (an idea I got from this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk ).
The reason I've posted this here is that I usually tell my pupils that they will rarely see a maj13 chord since it's dissonent, but I notice you refer to it in the JA-021 maj chord lesson several times but when you play it you always miss out the 11th. I just wonder if this might lead to problems if students write a chord chart with maj13 chords in it then give it to a piano player who might play the full chord - it could sound a bit off! All the chords you refer to as maj13 I would probably call maj9add13 - anyhow its just a small piont; maybe I'm being a bit pedantic or maybe I'm plain wrong (!) but I'd be interested to know what you think.

[close2u]

@ groovey2shoes

welcome
 

and well done for finding a Justin thread with no responses ... some doing that


I'll attempt an answer .. though with your background I'm sure you know this ...

The problem with a Major 13 chord is that in theory it contains 7 notes and we guitarists only have 6 strings

the most 'important' notes are the 1, 3, 5, 7, 13 ...  'essentials'

the 9 and 11 are the most 'disposable' ... 'optionals'

I think there are Major 13 chord shapes with just the 5 'essentials' and some with the 5 essentials and either the 9 or the 11 included too ... though I would have to do some homework to check that statement

I'm not sure if that answers your question

[groovey2shoes]

Hi
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate that when guitarists play seven note chords they've got to prioritise becauase they've only got six strings - that's fine. What I'm worried about is the use of the term maj13. Lets say a guitar student writes a song using the maj13 chord shapes you've given them then hands a chord chart of the song to a piano player. Technically when the piano player sees the chord he or she will include the 11th note which will sound dissonant and probably not what the songwriter wanted. I wonder if the term maj9add13 would be more accurate since it would be applicable to all chordal instruments. I know I'm just splitting hairs and I don't want to sound like I'm complaining or anything because your website is excellent; I'm just curious to know if you've adopted a new standard convention that I'm not up to speed with yet.

[TB-AV]

My thoughts.......

1. This is a guitar class.
2. Most guitar chord finders/spellers and such will not have a 9add13 chord to find.

3. This is not a class to teach chart writing for multiple instruments
4. So if the guitarist hands a written maj13 to a piano player, the piano player will play what s/he knows to sound best for the situation, 11th, altered 11th or no 11th or some other suitable alteration.

Tom Wheeler - Guitar Book dated 1974  --  1 3 5 b7 9 13
Adam Kadmon - The Guitar Grimoire dated 1995 -- 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13


So technically you are correct but in practical application it's going to be called a maj13. No different than dropping 3rds and 5ths or even roots.

That's my take on it anyway. The frustration of guitar teaching. If you could teach everyone everything all at once it would make life a lot easier. The problem and reality is,,, what do you tell them first. What's most important. Is the dropped 11th best taught in advanced lessons? Will it become self evident ( probably so ) when a student gets into theory? I think it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things.

[groovey2shoes]

Thanks for your reply. I suppose it all goes back to George Russel and his big book with the even bigger title, so we can all blame him! I suppose all chord charts are not intended to be taken literally and discretion on the part of the player is to be expected and welcomed. I just think that it's interesting that there is still something left in the world of music education that doesn't seem to have been nailed down - maybe that's a good thing!

[justinguitar]

It is all down to sounds and good piano player 'should' know which is the best grip to use...

I have sometimes seen said chord grip written as a Maj 6/7, and yes a 13 does imply the 11th... but I tend to follow the Joe Pass vibe of there just being 3 chord groups, and everything within them are just sounds to choose from... the ear is boss y'know