Author Topic: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode  (Read 7232 times)

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Offline close2u

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 04:27:05 pm »
Yeah!

There you go.

TB did it with graphics too.


Can I delete my embarrassing gaffs now please!!


 :D

Offline TB-AV

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 04:44:49 pm »
Quote
Can I delete my embarrassing gaffs now please!!

No!!! you must suffer more public humiliation.

======================

BTW, to the OP. There are two things at play here as well that you probably don't know or haven't thought about.

If you want to think C Major for D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, etc... the modes of C Major.

Your chords will dictate how things end up sounding. Not only that but for each different mode youe will have to re-focus the important notes per mode. So there is no shortcut. Just because you know the dots for C Major E Shape - that's not enough if for instance you wanted to play a D Dorian solo melody ( no chords ). You still need to know which are the interesting D Dorian notes or it will just end up sounding like C Major. Same if you try E Phrygian.

Conversely if you choose to learn a Dorian Scale in each SHAPE, it's a lot of work.

THE BOTTOM LINE....... in both instances you HAVE to learn the notes and relationships or you will never pull it off.

You are at the very beginning and need to stay focused on what Justin is saying. After you grasp that basic aspect, you move to the next level and re-think some things. when it's all said and done though, there is no magic bullet. Don;t expect this happen over night like learning an easy three chord song.

Learning one mode is no easier than learning one scale. In fact the background info and practical application makes it harder to learn so set plenty of time aside. Do what the lessons say. When they say use the Pattern 1 - be sure to have it sitting on your desk with pen and note pad.

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Offline sandomenico

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 04:52:25 pm »
Thanks Guys, esp TB for the full skinny & graphics.   Got it now!  :)

Hope you don't mind one other q.

If improvising in say A minor pentatonic scale and want to mix in the dorian, would you use the dorian position where the root note is the common A on the low E? or is there a tone shift to think about?

Thanks.

Offline close2u

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 04:57:11 pm »
A minor pent suggests a song in A minor so you use the A dorian which equates to the G major scale ...

A minor pent pattern 1 based around fret 5 sits nicely in line with the G major scale (= A dorian) pattern 2 (the D shape of CAGED or EDCAG)

Offline sandomenico

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2011, 06:11:47 pm »
Thanks for the guidance
 

Offline TB-AV

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2011, 12:14:18 am »
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If improvising in say A minor pentatonic scale and want to mix in the dorian, would you use the dorian position where the root note is the common A on the low E? or is there a tone shift to think about?

No there is no tone shift. In fact, if you consider where I said it would be necessary to learn the scale steps, that question is a prime example.

A Min Pent  1 b3 4 5 b7
A Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 

Notice only notes 2 and 6 are missing. If you knew where they were, you could just pop them in at will. As the lesson notes, the 6 is an important Dorian tone. so where is it?  One fret away from the b7 and two frets from the 5.

so hopefully you see the importance of keeping track of the scale steps. When these lessons tell you that a mode or scale uses "x" set of notes like 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 it is understood that you are supposed to learn that and be able to identify those frets on the fretboard.

Again that lesson I have been doing in tips and tricks will bring you up to speed on that concept. You will never fully get modes if you don't learn that basic principal.



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Offline Blindog Steve

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2013, 08:48:07 am »
Hi, I'm getting my head around scales and jazz stuff seriously for the first time in 40 years of playing .... and maybe ( if i understand right) a clearer reference to the fact "we are still working with the C major scale boys and girls and you should play this over a D minor backing track to here the Dorian sound" would be clearer?

please correct me if I'm wrong. and thanks Justin for all your help. :)

Offline close2u

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2013, 09:07:24 am »
.... and maybe ( if i understand right) a clearer reference to the fact "we are still working with the C major scale boys and girls and you should play this over a D minor backing track to here the Dorian sound" would be clearer?

please correct me if I'm wrong

Yes, you are wrong.
The D Dorian scale just happens to share the exact same set of notes as the C Major scale but they are definitely not the same scale ... because of
1] the root note
2] the intervals

1]
C Major scale ................................... D Dorian scale

C root note ..................................... D root note


2]

1  2  3  4  5  6  7 .............................. 1  2  b3  4  5  6  b7

w  w  h  w  w  w  h .............................. w  h  w  w  w  h  w

Offline mark767

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2014, 06:18:01 pm »
Quote
"Put the scale with your fist finger in the 7th fret (C Major) and play it over a D minor chord (or other chords in the Common Chords shown above)."
Refering to the position 1 major scale diagram.
But there's no C at the seventh fret anywhere
I know I'm probably missing something here, but could someone please explain what he means here!

@ sandominco

Here's the deal... and I can see where your confusion comes from.

First off: Justin is teaching modes "as they relate to the parent major scale".  So to understand where he is coming from you have to stay focused on what else he is saying.

Two points he makes.
A. He is describing the mode from the PMS Pattern/Shape 1
B. When he tells you to put your index finger at fret 7 he is using E SHAPE / PATTERN 1 ( which has it's Root note one fret higher at fret 8 )

Your confusion arrives from the fact that the E SHAPE for C Major will have it's first tone at fret 7 and it's Root on fret 8 ( for all of us except close2u  :o ), and it's next note on fret 10 ( the D note ).

BUT ... in the diagram for the lesson he notes that he has painted the dots red to represent the DORIAN scale from C Major or D DORIAN. So that R now moves to fret 10 ( from fret 8 ).

The Root was C for C Major and now because we are playing Dorian it is D.

In reality the D Dorian is using a the G SHAPE but he wants to teach the modes as coming from one central point. The C MAJOR 1st PATTERN E SHAPE.

So for D Dorian

This ( Root note is C for C Major )


Becomes This ( Root note is moved to D for D Dorian but dot pattern does not change )



Notice that the dots did not move but the "focus" of notes "did move". We re-focused from C MAJOR to D DORIAN with the same note pattern.

STOP READING HERE TO STAY FOCUSED ON JUSTIN'S LESSON
=======================================

Conversely to above and to prove the above is correct.
As I noted above the D DORIAN graphic looks just like the G SHAPE ---based on where the Root Notes are located----
Let's look at a G SHAPE

Notice the Root Notes are in the same place. But that's a MAJOR PATTERN and NOT DORIAN. Let's make it Dorian

We need to flat the 3's and 7's. If you move every 3 and every 7 down one fret your pattern will end up looking just like this....


If you don;t understand which notes are 3's 5's 7's or whatever, then read this thread.......
Master the G SHAPE

It's sort of a convoluted thing to think about.

On one hand you have the fact that d Dorian comes from C Major so you can just think ok, I'll just play C Major but focus on different notes.

On the other hand... you can say screw it, I'm going D Dorian and don't want to relate it to anything. I want D Dorian to be my basis. In that case you have to learn the b3 and b7 in a D Major scale.


Thanks TB-AV....you have no idea how much this has helped me to understand Justin's Lessons on Modes.

Offline TB-AV

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 10:25:43 pm »
No problem....

The "Third Layer" if you will is the most important one. That is the "sound". Each mode has a sound that is often associated with it. It can vary a bit.

For instance let's say you are playing a typical Major song. It has a sound. Not every Major song has that exact same sound but it's really pretty close. Now if transformed the song to Natural Minor.. it would sound totally different. Most everyone would be able to hear the difference.

Like a I IV V in C Major won't sound like a i iv v in C Minor. You will hear the difference. Well that's difference between Ionian and Aeolian. All the to other modes have sounds too.

Now consider this......

Let's say you learned the Dorian pattern noted above. So let's say you can play C Major Pattern and D Dorian Pattern at will.

So you are going along in C Major and playing lead just fine. You see a Dm chord coming up and think, I'm going to play a Dorian phrase over that 2 bard Dm chord with my newly learned Dorian Pattern.

Well all you are really doing is playing the notes in "Dorian Name Only". Yes, it's true they are Dorian notes, Yes it true they are C Major Scale notes BUT.. .also yes it's true that the tune is written in C Major and you are NOT playing "Modal".

The whole ordeal or at least a segment of a song needs to be composed in Dorian and have the Dorian sound(tonality) for it to be Dorian. You would then play the very same same notes.

I know this sounds confusing, but think of this analogy.

Let's just take a C Chord. The notes are what they are. They never change. Now ... what key, what sound, what tonality is that C Chord? .. .Well... who knows..... In a G C D progression it"s G Major. In C F G it's C Major,  In F Bb C it's the Key of F.... So we never changed the C chord, we kept the C Ionian mode pattern of notes, but in each instance the playing of those notes was defined by the rest of the chords. So yes we used C Ionian note pattern, but we didn't play C Ionian.... except in the C F G progression.

If you want to "get modes", in the sense that you might be able to play them as such and make them sound like "something different", then you have to get this concept of "names for patterns" vs "actual use of the notes in context"

The very best and easiest way to grasp this is to use modal backing tracks or root note drones.

C Dm G7 C --- play D Dorian pattern over the Dm, makes zero difference, you are still playing C Major.

Drone Bass D note --- play D Dorian pattern, now you are in Dorian mode.... but! just like the notes for Major scale, you can't just play them willy nilly, you have to choose them wisely, some applications sound a whole lot better than others. IOW, just because you know the pattern, you don;t get a free lunch. You still need to place them together in an interesting manner.

Dm Em Dm Am Dm G Dm -- play Dorian pattern,,, still Dorian mode... Notice we don;t even have C in this one even though the chords can be said to belong to C Major.

So the first example... NOT DORIAN .. .the next two are.

The next advanced level would be a song that changes Key ( modulates ). Let's say we started in Key of G ( G am Bm C D Em F#_ ) notice no Dm... Ok your verse is G Major. Then for chorus you decide to take a left turn on circle of Fifths and go one click left to C Major... now you pick up Dm ( C Dm Em F G Am B_ ) and use those chords to form a Dorian progression as we did above.

So maybe your song goes...
G C G C D G Am Em --- and now we move into D Dorian ... Dm Em G Dm Am  and back into G major D7 G

So that's G Ionian with a short section of D Dorian back to G Ionian... you could stay longer on D Dorian or even end the song if you like. You can do this all you want.  Have a song with with 4 keys if you like.

But you see the notes can be Dorian in "name only" or they can actually be applied over a Dorian harmony and me truly a modal deal.



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Offline asylum

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 10:40:49 pm »
Quote
. and maybe ( if i understand right) a clearer reference to the fact "we are still working with the C major scale boys and girls and you should play this over a D minor backing track to here the Dorian sound" would be clearer?

please correct me if I'm wrong

Quote
Yes, you are wrong.
The D Dorian scale just happens to share the exact same set of notes as the C Major scale but they are definitely not the same scale ... because of
1] the root note
2] the intervals

1]
C Major scale ................................... D Dorian scale

C root note ..................................... D root note

Iam not so sure that the quote from blindog is wrong, if you play a D dorian mode over a C major progression that dorian will still sound like the C major scale because the progressions tonal center is C

Now if we were playing the D Dorian mode over a Dminor vamp then you could clearly hear the tonal center being D. I think ;D
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2014, 11:14:40 pm »
TB-AV is more right.  I would say Blinddog's answer is incomplete.

I am always stay aware of the PMS, because it gives me my overall fretboard map and easy access to the notes and chords that are available in the mode.  But you gotta focus on the whole Dm Dorian-ness of it all. 

For me I see Dm pentatonic shapes inside the C major shapes first; but that isn't dorian yet, but it is safe all good notes.  Then the two "not pentatonic" notes are the Dorian flavor tones.  Start to sprinkle those in.  If it gets wacky back off to Dm pentatonic.  Get solid.  The go grab some Dorian spice.  Lather rinse repeat.

Eventually you will get comfortable and not have to think so much and it just starts working.  I work each of the 5 scale shapes, see Dm, see extra notes, figure out how to work the in and phrase them.

So yep its all the same notes as C.  That gets you a map, and the building blocks.  But you better be ables to see that map through a Dm lense...

Shadow

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Offline TB-AV

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2014, 11:15:12 pm »
Now if we were playing the D Dorian mode over a Dminor vamp then you could clearly hear the tonal center being D. I think ;D

Correct. You will most likely hear the D tonal center. Which is not necessarily D Dorian. It's simply D Family and more specifically D minor tonal family.

So.... you might hear D Dorian, D Phrygian, D Aeolian or maybe even D Locrian, depending on what that D minor Vamp is doing.
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Offline TB-AV

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 02:54:08 am »
Then the two "not pentatonic" notes are the Dorian flavor tones.  Start to sprinkle those in.  If it gets wacky back off to Dm pentatonic.  Get solid.  The go grab some Dorian spice.  Lather rinse repeat.


This is what I was explaining is -not- Dorian. Perfect example. I just lost my post, so this is the short story. hell, I typed it all again.


Anyone following along at home you will need the use of Youtube and the search field.

A. Simpson's Theme
B. Danny Gatton  - Sky King
C. Joe Satriani - Modes lesson -- 2 or 3 parts

Why playing notes that may be in a Dorian Scale or Dorian Pattern is not Dorian but simply chromaticism.

1. Listen to Simpson's theme - get that sound thoroughly in your head - Got it? .. It's happy right? Bright, carefree, Sunny, Bouncy... Feel it. It's a circus of happy feeling music. That is Lydian and the use of the #4 is very important in that sound. that's the happy bright note.

2. Now play a blues. Play your most soulful slow blues that you can wring out. Now, by any means necessary, however you see things on the guitar, music, or whatever, play the #4 from a Lydian pattern.

doesn't sound too happy does it? #4 = b5 , the Blue Note. The one that makes you go oh mercy me when you play the blues. the one so sad you need to bend it on up so you don't cry.

So there is no way that you just "spiced" up your blues with a Lydian #4.

this situation is true for every scale/mode. The patterns are in name only when used as such. Life may be easy for you to "see" things as a Dorian note or a Dorian pattern.... but the MUSIC dictates if it is indeed Dorian spice. In fact it is not.... at least not in the context of say an otherwise flat out Major progression.

For your Key your get 7 tones, included at no extra charge are 5 more tones. These are your spicy chromatic tones and in context very likely have zero to do with modality.

With this in mind.... listen to Sky King. Both the sax and Danny "go outside" the term outside simply means to employ your 5 chromatic tones for tension to interest the listener.

Notice too that from beginning to end this song has a feel, a tonality, a life.... just as the Simpson's Theme did and just as your Blues did if you played it well. At no time, even towards the end when Danny and the Sax were playing outside together did the song 'change' it's flavor. Even the most casual of listeners would not be lost nor would they say..... "wow, that song started off one way and then changed into something else" .. .that's because it didn't.

The fact you play a note that can be assigned to a group of notes and given a mode name does not mean every time you play that note that you are playing that mode.

All it means is that you have assigned a memory device to it and you are thinking in relational linear terms... IE. C D E F G A B  you would say the D is a Dorian note.   this memory or visualization does not make the MUSIC Dorian just because you use that note.

Again, if the harmony is already Dorian then this "spice" will not sound like "spice" it will sound like the "meal". It will fit by default. the overall tonality will be Dorian from the Harmony. It will all sound Dorian just like the Simpsons sounded Lydian.

So your "Spice" in the context of grabbing Dorian Spice in a basic Major progression is simply employing Chromatic accidentals. It will indeed add interest, tension, etc,,, but it won't be Dorian in the sense of Modal Dorian music.

So in casual speech people will say "I used the Dorian scale. This may be true, but how that scale functions as heard in context may not be Dorian. It all depends on the Harmony going on.

Again, I am speaking of dead ahead basic old Major scale Harmony progression. Now if your harmony changes that's another story.... or even if your harmony drops out to some unstructured drone... but if your harmony changes to dead on Dorian then your "spice" notes won't sound spicy, they will sound like the ones you are supposed to be playing because they fit.

I hope this makes sense that we can employ Dorian Scales in name and location of notes in a pattern and remember them by any means we choose but we can also create Modal Music that most often has a "Sound"... and that simply using a note from a modal scale will not necessarily give us this "Sound".

So in conversation we may say, "I used Dorian" and it's sort of like saying "play it down"... A beginner may move his hand toward the floor, or may move his hand 'down' towards the bridge.  When in reality, play it down, means to go lower in pitch by going to lower string which seems like up towards the ceiling.

The Simpsons Theme does not equal the Blues yet they both share the #4/b5 as one of the most important tones in their group of notes. Two different Sounds ... and that's what you want to find... you want to find what the modes sound like.

Be aware of how the information is being related... generally speaking if you have a lesson on a mode you assume that modal harmony will be going on... otherwise, and in one's personal efforts, the harmony may not be modal and one might simply be employing chromaticism.

Finally you can watch Joe Satriani teach modes and pay attention to where he talks about what happens as the harmony changes. The more sparse the harmony the more easy it is to actually employ modal scales such as the Dorian scale. The more complex the harmony the less likely you will be able to employ 'mode by choice' or even 'spice notes'.

Also there is nothing wrong with employing say playing one scale over a different harmony as it may make it easier for you to remember and employ these extra chromatic tension tones. This is fine. Simply be aware of the duality of modes so to speak.

1. True Modal = Recognizable Sound ( once learned )
2. Use of modal fingerings to facilitate the employment of chromatic tones in an otherwise 'normal' progression. EX> C Major progression and purposefully playing the Am Pent shape because it's something you remember . Or F Ionian over C Major ( F G A Bb C D E ) notice it introduces one chromatic note the Bb... Maybe you know your F Major scale better than your C Mixolydian scale ( C D E F G A Bb ) same notes... notice none of this is Modal playing even though you are calling upon "modal scales" or "modal patterns"

True Modal Sound vs Chromatic Device  The two lives of playing and communicating "modes".

 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:21:15 am by TB-AV »
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: SC-112 • The Dorian Mode
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 03:41:15 am »
Yes.  What I said supposes playing over an appropriate harmony...

The harmony needs to support the mode, or at least not specify some other mode.

Shadow
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