Author Topic: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach  (Read 9308 times)

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Offline Hammer

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2011, 12:38:18 am »
Hey, many thanks for the speedy and comprehensive answer, it's really helped! Good vibrations on the way ;D

I've only started looking at modes in the last few weeks, so while I understand the theory behind them, I haven't really gotten to grips with using them yet. The confusion arose in that I was coming from the blues scale perspective rather than the major scale, and had it in my head that it was adding 2 notes from the minor scale rather than superimposing the dorian mode over the whole shape, which of course is a product of the major scale, but I'm clear on that now.

Actually verbalizing the question helped set it to right in my head, but i decided to post the query anyway, just to make sure i had it right!

I get you on the major pent, I play it correctly, but again jumping between the major and minor I just got it in my head that the intervals were the same and the only things changing were the flats , which of course isn't the case! Silly mistake to make now that I think about it properly!

Anyway, thanks again!

Hammer

Offline Hammer

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2011, 12:41:54 am »
@ shadowscott

Thanks for the answer! The more into theory that I get, the more relationships I see between everything, so that's a really interesting way of looking at it, and certainly makes sense. Once I've got the modes more firmly locked down, I'll have to have a look at the way the pentatonics relate to the modes beyond the dorian.

cheers,

Hammer

Offline steveo2

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2011, 02:51:50 pm »
Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach

I had a look at the first position that Justin has on the website and the way i see it is that all those 6 & 9 notes belong to the A major Pent scale so why worry about the Dorian all i need to do is just mix the Major and Minor pent and you have all the notes anyway or am i missing something here?
You are right, Dorian is a minor mode.
While the notes produce the same notes as what some would call the Dorian scale.
I see no way it is a major mode.
Had a Waiter last night who's name was Dorian, so when I pay him I ask about his name.
Yeah he changed it, he was opening gay and told me more than I need too know I also told him his name was Greek, he had no idea bit he change him middle name as well and it was Greek.

I have ask many teachers if this is the right way to look at the mode, none seem to think so.
Take lesson form Guthrie Govan he had a brief comment saying about the same thing, but when he played example he turn the minor 3rd into a major and that's not Dorian either.
Unless there is new theory that has been made this is just some mixed up word play, like the Gospel blues lesson.
Stormy Monday comes to my mind , see no reason you could not call it Stormy Sunday.
Stormy Monday as a old song, one every guitarist should know.
 
 
BB King seems to get the credit for this, but I think he said he got it from slide guitar and Frank , ole blues eyes.
If I am playing Blues and it's major chord , note Dom7th chords still are major maybe Mixolydian would come to my mind.

Peace

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 06:43:29 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2011, 08:36:33 pm »
... Dorian is a minor mode .... I see no way it is a major mode.

Steveo ... being a mode of the major scale is not the same as being a major mode (where major mode = major in nature).

But it is a mode of the major scale ...

Mode I = Ionian ... the major scale

Mode ii = Dorian ... a type of minor scale (because it has a flat 3)

Mode iii = Phrygian ... a type of minor scale (because it has a flat 3)

Mode IV = Lydian ... a type of major scale

Mode V = Mixolydian ... a type of major scale

Mode vi = Aeolian .. the natural minor scale

Mode vii = Locrian ... a type of minor scale (because it has a flat 3)


Quote
... Had a Waiter last night who's name was Dorian, so when I pay him I ask about his name.

Maybe named after Oscar Wilde's Dorian Gray!

 ;D

Offline steveo2

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 03:03:51 pm »
Yeah but he like the Music thing better, but THAT IS CORRECT.
You may wish to re write the as it is vague, yes the flat 3rd in in all three minor scale but it is not the key or guide tones.
The b2 and the B 6th  are keys tones of a minor scale that sound like your cold.

Some should contact Justin and see why he things that it cool to to add these 6 and 9 and call this the Dorian mode.
 Like Dorian my waiter it just something he made up :D
All theory I know suggest that Dorian is the minor mode which would not have a Dominate chord as the one.
Does those notes sound good yes the blues is kind of base of a feeling more than theory and the feeling I get when I look too the west and the spirit is crying is half Dorian ,Half Aeolian, that b 6th in the solo removed the mist and made it clear.
 ;D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 10:35:51 pm by close2u »

Offline shadowscott007

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 03:26:06 pm »
Well the minor pentatonic is 1, b3, 4, 5, b7.

And Dorian is 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7.

So it looks to me like if you start with the former, add the 2 and 6, you get the latter.

I understand that is not how you prefer to look at it; but there it is.

I don't think there is anything to ask Justin right there it is.

Shadow
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Offline shadowscott007

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 08:49:01 pm »
I am really curious, no really, and I am really trying to understand.

Are you saying that one cannot use a D Dorian scale (to randomly pick a tonal center) over a D blues?

Or are you saying that, yeah you can use it; and it has all the same as D Dorian, but you shouldn't think of it that way?

If it is the first I completely disagree.  If its the second, I see your point, but it is just too convenient to think about it that way.  Especially if you are a beginner and are at the scale pattern level.

Shadow

P.S. Fathom isn't slang. It is the opposite of slang; it means "to penetrate to the truth of; comprehend; understand" dictionary.com. Language is a kind of music and I enjoy playing it just as much as I enjoy playing the regular kind on my guitar.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Offline steveo2

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 09:32:52 pm »
I am saying that as a mode that Dorian is minor as a mode.
So it is really a minor mode.
I use those note over progressions in the same way as Justin demonstrated, but Dorian would not cross my mind,
So it should not be thought of as a Major or Dominate way.
Since Justin first put this on you tube,I have said the same thing.


I think in context to what he is playing and it being over the Dom7 chord he is mixing the Major pentatonic notes with the minor pentatonic scale.

I have played with many Blues player some well there famous.
Many play these same licks, pretty sure they did not think Dorian either.
Those same notes played over a Minor chord progression would be Dorian.
Again not an expert on modes.

If your a beginner you really should get the major and it relative minor scales down.
Unless Justin has change he said the same thing, I think he may have said you should know the major scale well.
I do not wish to speak for Justin, but I will speak for the blues,with the more modern players it is clear every note in the western scale can be added as long to you play something that sounds like the blues you could play about any thing a augmented arpeggio followed play a simple blues lick, really only one imagination and how far you want to go is the question.
Again the shape of the chord and it order in the progression, seems more of the stuff I play that goes out happen over the 4 and 5 chords.
 
I do not speak many languages, I can sing songs in a few other tongues but truly think I mess these up too.
The people from the countries that I try to sing in I think get a kick out of me trying must are laughing at me.
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 06:44:18 am by close2u »

Offline close2u

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 06:48:59 am »
... You may wish to re write the as it is vague, yes the flat 3rd in in all three minor scale but it is not the key or guide tones.

Quite right.

All three of the 'minor type' scales are considered 'minor' because of their flat third.

Their distinctive character / sound is due to the other notes you mention ...

Dorian is 'minor' (because of the flat 3) with a key note being the flat 7

Phrygian is made distinct by the flat 2 and flat 6 aswell as the flat 3 and flat 7

Aeolian is the 'natural minor' ... the minor scale that people generally refer to as the minor scale

Locrian has many flattened notes that give it its character


Quote
The b2 and the B 6th  are keys tones of a minor scale that sound like your cold.

The Phrygian!!   Fridge - ian!!    :D

Quote
Some should contact Justin and see why he things that it cool to to add these 6 and 9 and call this the Dorian mode.
Like Dorian my waiter it just something he made up :D

He is bending his own rules i believe ... just to give folk something different to think about.

Justin in general says learn the major scale then learn the modes (which means Dorian comes after the major scale is learned).

And yet he is suggesting that using the minor pentatonic with a couple of extra notes added leads to playing using the 'Dorian approach'.

This is slightly contrary to his learning philosophy I think ... but I also think I know why he does it and why it works.

I think he does it to give people that went doen the road of blues playing with minor pentatonic before going down the major scale road a little something to 'spice up' their playing and give them an extra dimension.

It works because the A Dorian scale is exactly the same as the A minor pentatonic with the 6 and 9 added.

A minor Pentatonic:

A,   C,   D,   E,   G
1,   b3,  4,   5,   b7

A Dorian

A,   B,   C,   D,   E,   F#,   G
1,   2,   b3,  4,   5,   6,    b7
8,   9

  
Quote
All theory I know suggest that Dorian is the minor mode which would not have a Dominate chord as the one.

It works because of the flat 7 and the flat 3 creating that blues tension against the Dominant chord.

Quote
... Does those notes sound good yes the blues is kind of base of a feeling more than theory

There we are ... agreement ... it sounds good ...

And this also goes to that current thread on how much theory to learn .... you can analyse stuff ... but if it sounds good you don't need to ...


Quote
...and the feeling I get when I look too the west and the spirit is crying is half Dorian ,Half Aeolian, that b 6th in the solo removed the mist and made it clear.

I disagree there ...

The solo is fully within the A minor pentatonic scale .... apart from one note ... the note being F ... that Jimmy plays over the F chord ... it is indeed the flat 6th and for that brief moment you could say he is then playing a part of an A Aeolian scale (but without the 2).
Because there is no 2 and 6 I don't think you would describe it as A Dorian.


 ;D


[mod edit - for a continued discussion on the stairway to heaven & its scales see this thread]
http://justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php?topic=27950.0

Offline Hammer

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2011, 11:43:16 pm »
Out of curiosity, why is the B in the A scale referred to as the 9 rather than the 2. I know its both in the 9th and 2nd degrees of the scale, but was wondering why its called the 9!

Offline steveo2

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 12:02:13 am »
Out of curiosity, why is the B in the A scale referred to as the 9 rather than the 2. I know its both in the 9th and 2nd degrees of the scale, but was wondering why its called the 9!
2 plus 7 equals 9,
Is an Octave above 4 plus 7 is 11
6 plus 7 is 13
That's as high as you have to count.
so it a way too span two octaves  :D

Offline Hammer

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 07:42:30 pm »
Thanks for the reply, I'm afraid I still don't understand though! I'll try and rephrase a bit!

I get that the 9th is the note an octave higher than the 2nd, I'm just wondering why, when overlaying the dorian on a pentatonic, you say you're adding the 6 and the 9 from the dorian scale. Is there any specific reason to say it this particular way, rather than saying for example, the 2 and the 13 (same notes with different intervals)?

Basically, I just don't understand why the B (in the key of A) which is the 2nd and the 9th is called the 9th, when it's also included as the second degree of the scale. If you were leaving out the B in the 2nd degree when playing the scale, I'd understand, but as it's there, I don't get why its called the 9th instead of just the 2nd!

Hope that makes sense!
Cheers,
Hammer

Offline joshs

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 08:07:39 pm »
@shadowscott

really dug your post about using the pentatonic as the base and adding notes to get the modes! I tend to think about it that way, too, only I hadn't done the homework of figuring out it works for all the different modes.

Offline shadowscott007

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 08:10:29 pm »
It comes from chord construction theory.  Usually you don't add notes that are right next to primary chord tones in the same octave because they tend to sound bad.  There are exceptions, but generally speaking that's the case anyway.

In this case, because we are dropping a couple of notes into the scale 2 and 6 could be used as easily as 9 and 13.  Sometimes it makes a difference, but for the subject of this particular thread it was extraneous information.  Useful in other contexts though and a good thing to know.

Not sure why the vocabulary changed in the middle of the thread, but it is what it is.  When you say 9 and 13, it makes you sound smarter though.  :D

Shadow
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Offline steveo2

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Re: BL-028 • Blues Lead Guitar #18 - The Dorian Approach
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2011, 01:49:25 pm »
Thanks for the reply, I'm afraid I still don't understand though! I'll try and rephrase a bit!

I get that the 9th is the note an octave higher than the 2nd, I'm just wondering why, when overlaying the dorian on a pentatonic, you say you're adding the 6 and the 9 from the dorian scale. Is there any specific reason to say it this particular way, rather than saying for example, the 2 and the 13 (same notes with different intervals)?

Basically, I just don't understand why the B (in the key of A) which is the 2nd and the 9th is called the 9th, when it's also included as the second degree of the scale. If you were leaving out the B in the 2nd degree when playing the scale, I'd understand, but as it's there, I don't get why its called the 9th instead of just the 2nd!

Hope that makes sense!
Cheers,
Hammer
This is hard but it is what I said it is, you need to just look at two whole octaves of the major one the first octave has the 2 and 6 .
the second has the 9 and 13.

best I can do, you getting a 50 buck keyboard would fix this in a day or two ;D